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New Flag for Northern Ireland
This debate has probably been done almost as much as any other (except possibly "but they started it") and indeed may still be flowing at Slugger, but I feel like giving it another airing in the wake of Sinn Fein's call for "neutrality or equality" on the flags issue. It's probably not what they had in mind, but in response I will present my argument for a new flag for Northern Ireland (pdf) . If you don't want to download the full document, what follows can be considered extended highlights. Please note that this is a draft (or 'beta version' if you like) and not the final product, so feedback (or at least constructive criticism) is welcome.
Northern Ireland may not be a nation state, but that does not preclude it from requiring its own flag. Firstly, Northern Ireland is legally a region that is distinct from the rest of the United Kingdom, in the same way that England, Scotland or Wales are. Even counties like Devon and Cornwall have their own flags and Northern Ireland should be no exception.
Secondly, Northern Ireland is often represented in international sport, be it international football, golf, or the commonwealth games. Using a flag that could be accepted and supported by both communities would aid the organisations involved in such events in attracting support from a wider range of individuals.
The arguments against a new flag can be summed up thusly: many Unionists and Loyalists do not wish to see Northern Ireland's links with Britain (and the Crown) undermined. Similarly, many nationalists and republicans do not recognise Northern Ireland at all, and therefore, see no reason for it to have any symbols.
Follow up:
The Situation Now
The white Ulster flag was designed by the Unionist government in the 1950s based on the coat of arms granted to Northern Ireland decades previously, and some nationalists may see this alone as a reason why they don't identify with it. Others will point to the inclusion of the crown, or the fact that the flag is similar to England's, and apparently incorporates the Cross of St. George. As well as the above, its use (and some would say abuse) by unionists and loyalists, has ensured that the flag is seen by many as the preserve of Unionist communities.
Part of the Good Friday Agreement made provision for the principle of parity of esteem. Republicans have called for both flags to be flown at government buildings, in the name of this parity. It is the belief of
many that this is a flawed interpretation of the principle.
Democratic Dialogue's research explains that the dual flag proposal cannot be accepted by unionists because as well as a symbol of identification, a flag is a symbol of sovereignty; this is particularly true of the Union Flag on public buildings. Therefore, an Irish flag flying, particularly over government buildings, would in effect symbolise joint sovereignty. This is something which unionists, en masse, have never accepted, and which not only isn't included in the Belfast Agreement, it in fact runs contrary to what unionists see as a core aspect of the agreement.
Suggestions
The Alliance party is one group who have already proposed a new Northern Ireland flag (see the pdf for details) and have explained examples to encourage debate. I don't believe any of these suggestions are appropriate. The Giant's Causeway Flag is too geographically confined to north Antrim and may seem much less relevant in Fermanagh or south Down, for example. The yellow Northern Ireland outline on a blue background is very complicated. It's generally accepted that flags should be kept simple. The flax flower is symbolic of the linen industry which has for a long time been declining - hardly a favourable impression of a new Northern Ireland.
There are also rumours that the UK government had been considering a new design in the late 1990s, but I have yet to see any substantiation of this - though it was an interesting design.
The Solution
While some suggest a new flag would need to forget the past and look to the future, I prefer the idea that a new flag should find aspects of our past that we share. Getting into visions of the unknown future often results in vague concepts that are hard to symbolise and perhaps harder to identify with. To that end, I propose a relatively simple design for Northern Ireland's new flag.
Rather than use the red perpendicular cross, associated with St George, the flag bares the red saltire or cross of St Patrick. Saint Patrick is a man, and a symbol, both communities can identify with. He is the patron saint of the whole island, who came here at a time before any notion of an Irish state, Protestants or Catholics, nationalists or unionists ever
existed on the island.
The flag retains the centre piece of the current Northern Ireland flag, the red hand on the 6 pointed star. The red hand has been a symbol of Ulster (the province from which Northern Ireland was formed) for centuries and is one of few symbols used by both communities, appearing both on the Ulster Banner and badges of GAA clubs (as well as on the arms of County Tyrone, Antrim and Londonderry). The 6 pointed star reflects the 6 counties of Northern Ireland: Fermanagh, Antrim, Tyrone, Londonderry (Derry), Armagh and Down.
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49 comments
Comment from: tim [Visitor]
nice arguement for the new flag my good friend. your design skills are impressive 
23 Feb 2006 @ 23:26
Comment from: charlie [Visitor]
I vote...yes. Its exactly what should have been done a long time ago.
24 Feb 2006 @ 03:39
Comment from: Andy [Visitor]
Good bit of research there Beano.
Yes..in principle, but how to introduce this idea is the problem.
A functioning Assembly could debate this, whether it could introduce it would be a constitutional matter.
certainly worth floating for now.
ps I do see some red and white Ulster Flags without the crown at Ulster rugby matches.( Maybe they are cheaper to produce)
Yes..in principle, but how to introduce this idea is the problem.
A functioning Assembly could debate this, whether it could introduce it would be a constitutional matter.
certainly worth floating for now.
ps I do see some red and white Ulster Flags without the crown at Ulster rugby matches.( Maybe they are cheaper to produce)
24 Feb 2006 @ 10:03
Comment from: Paul [Visitor] · http://www.nimagyar.blogspot.com
Interesting suggestion.
I think more Unionists that you'd suspect would not be too bothered about the crown disappearing of the new design.
Also as a side issue, it's noticeable that over the last ten years or so, the Union jack has become a lot less common at N.Ireland matches home and away. Partly this is due to the IFA and the supporters association placing more emphasis on "the green", but I think too it's a growing realisation that we do have a definite regional/national identity in NI which is as strong as the Welsh and Scottish one.
I think more Unionists that you'd suspect would not be too bothered about the crown disappearing of the new design.
Also as a side issue, it's noticeable that over the last ten years or so, the Union jack has become a lot less common at N.Ireland matches home and away. Partly this is due to the IFA and the supporters association placing more emphasis on "the green", but I think too it's a growing realisation that we do have a definite regional/national identity in NI which is as strong as the Welsh and Scottish one.
24 Feb 2006 @ 17:40
Comment from: Catherine [Visitor]
I'm new to the 2 flag debate. It seems divisive for one country - one people to have two flags or other national symbols.
I like the design. No green, no orange. Red hand of Ulster and six points for the six counties are lovely symbols.
I like the design. No green, no orange. Red hand of Ulster and six points for the six counties are lovely symbols.
24 Feb 2006 @ 17:54
Comment from: colin1690 [Member] 
I jus want northern Ireland to stay loyal to the protestant cause!!! Keep the Ulster flag forever and catherine is right we dont want no green near the flag.
25 Feb 2006 @ 17:24
Perhaps you'd care to expand as to what you mean by the "protestant cause!!!" (sic), because it means f**k all to me.
By your "keep the Ulster flag forever" I'll assume you're happy with never seeing a Northern Ireland flag flying off City Hall or any other public building again. The only way to get a NI flag flying in such places is to have it agreed and signed into law - something which will not happen with the Ulster Banner.
On this issue unionism could extend an olive branch towards nationalists and see if they're really interested in peace and living together, or if they just want victory and their version of a united Ireland.
By your "keep the Ulster flag forever" I'll assume you're happy with never seeing a Northern Ireland flag flying off City Hall or any other public building again. The only way to get a NI flag flying in such places is to have it agreed and signed into law - something which will not happen with the Ulster Banner.
On this issue unionism could extend an olive branch towards nationalists and see if they're really interested in peace and living together, or if they just want victory and their version of a united Ireland.
25 Feb 2006 @ 17:37
Comment from: steven [Visitor]
the national flag should be designed with the majority of Northern irelad in support of its colous, and layout.
I feel this issue is only a way for republicans to remove anything to do wit hthe british state,
The offical national flag is the union jack, the majority like it, :-)
I feel this issue is only a way for republicans to remove anything to do wit hthe british state,
The offical national flag is the union jack, the majority like it, :-)
27 Feb 2006 @ 23:07
That's incredibly clever Steven, it must have taken all of 10 seconds to come up with that gem.
The problem is that it has a very slim majority. My PoV is that a Northern Ireland flag doesn't need symbols of the British state - that's what the Union Flag is for.
In my ideal world an NI flag would be flown alongside it where the Union Flag is currently already flown.
An agreed NI flag could be flown from Stormont (currently no flag there), used for sports occasions and whatever else.
It could also put to bed the Sinn Fein myth that the only way to have any kind of neutrality is by flying the tricolour on UK soil.
The problem is that it has a very slim majority. My PoV is that a Northern Ireland flag doesn't need symbols of the British state - that's what the Union Flag is for.
In my ideal world an NI flag would be flown alongside it where the Union Flag is currently already flown.
An agreed NI flag could be flown from Stormont (currently no flag there), used for sports occasions and whatever else.
It could also put to bed the Sinn Fein myth that the only way to have any kind of neutrality is by flying the tricolour on UK soil.
28 Feb 2006 @ 01:02
Comment from: Jamie [Visitor]
Spot on, Beano.
A fantastic idea.
I would certainly prefer to see our own regional flag flown at state occasions.
A fantastic idea.
I would certainly prefer to see our own regional flag flown at state occasions.
28 Feb 2006 @ 12:08
Comment from: Brian Boru [Visitor]
As a Southern nationalist, I would suspect that Northern Nationalists would be more comfortable with the original flag of Ulster before partition, namely this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a0/Provincial_Ulster_Flag.gif/200px-Provincial_Ulster_Flag.gif
08 Mar 2006 @ 03:59
They may well prefer the flag used by GAA Brian - like most Northern Unionists would be more comfortable with the flag they currently use. See Flag of Northern Ireland
However, the whole point of the discussion was for some sort of compromise that both communities could use.
However, the whole point of the discussion was for some sort of compromise that both communities could use.
08 Mar 2006 @ 10:24
Comment from: Stiubhairt [Visitor]
The Union Flag is not an official flag.
The Northern Ireland flag, because it has been made unofficial is now more official than the union flag.
However, it holds ties with an era that many people in Ulster are ashamed of, or bitter about.
Symbolically, it can never again be accepted by the majority of the Nationalist population in Northern Ireland.
However, the very creation of a national symbol of Northern Ireland flies in the face of Irish Unification and the ideals of Republican values and so as a result it would be unlikely that a national flag could be devised and deemed acceptable given the breach of principle it would cause whatever the colours or design.
If we are a united people, with a shared heritage, then we should be able to devise a flag that is not divisive, and that can be claimed by all without demolishing history, or offending members of the populace.
The very theory behind what Republicans would determine as the national flag of Ireland, the Tricolour which is based fundamentally in principle upon the distinction between two stocks of people divided by a big white border is completely the wrong way to go.
It is based on an unfounded principle historically, scientifically, and genealogically.
One country, and one people, representing the heritage and the achievements of all should be depicted and acceptable by all, and not created by zealots or fundamentalists who believe in their distinction as a supremist ethnic group forced to accommodate pictorially their enemy neighbours for the purposes of feigned political accommodation, and then force it upon those that cannot accept it.
The Northern Ireland flag, because it has been made unofficial is now more official than the union flag.
However, it holds ties with an era that many people in Ulster are ashamed of, or bitter about.
Symbolically, it can never again be accepted by the majority of the Nationalist population in Northern Ireland.
However, the very creation of a national symbol of Northern Ireland flies in the face of Irish Unification and the ideals of Republican values and so as a result it would be unlikely that a national flag could be devised and deemed acceptable given the breach of principle it would cause whatever the colours or design.
If we are a united people, with a shared heritage, then we should be able to devise a flag that is not divisive, and that can be claimed by all without demolishing history, or offending members of the populace.
The very theory behind what Republicans would determine as the national flag of Ireland, the Tricolour which is based fundamentally in principle upon the distinction between two stocks of people divided by a big white border is completely the wrong way to go.
It is based on an unfounded principle historically, scientifically, and genealogically.
One country, and one people, representing the heritage and the achievements of all should be depicted and acceptable by all, and not created by zealots or fundamentalists who believe in their distinction as a supremist ethnic group forced to accommodate pictorially their enemy neighbours for the purposes of feigned political accommodation, and then force it upon those that cannot accept it.
30 Mar 2006 @ 14:19
Comment from: Rab [Visitor]
Good idea Beano. I would prefer a blue background,but as its about compromise. I'm willing to give it a go.
But are republicans?
But are republicans?
06 Jun 2006 @ 12:54
Hi Beano,
Like the flag - this was my own idea
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/633/newniva2.gif - which merged the Ulster Banner and Ulster Province flags.
Unfortunately our politicians seem to have a distinct lack of interest in doing anything about addressing the flag issue. I think we should have a public competition, or we'll eventually get lumbered with some ugly concoction like the PSNI emblem... But MLAs tend not to reply to letters or emails!!!
Like the flag - this was my own idea
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/633/newniva2.gif - which merged the Ulster Banner and Ulster Province flags.
Unfortunately our politicians seem to have a distinct lack of interest in doing anything about addressing the flag issue. I think we should have a public competition, or we'll eventually get lumbered with some ugly concoction like the PSNI emblem... But MLAs tend not to reply to letters or emails!!!
03 Oct 2007 @ 00:36
Comment from: Irish99 [Visitor]
Stiubhairt - The Union flag IS the official flag for NI.
21 Oct 2007 @ 20:21
Irish99 - AFAIK the Union Flag was never set out in law as the flag of the UK.
22 Oct 2007 @ 15:48
Comment from: Aaron M [Visitor]
Beano I like your idea and reasoning behind the design. I wouldn't say there would be (well I probably wouldn't be surprised either) too many who could argue as we all have to "give in" a bit if we're ever going to get on in this wee part of the world.
Personally I would rather have this proposed flag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image
roposed_flag_of_Northern_Ireland.svg
...which is basically the old N.I. Government Flag with the crown removed and some yellow/gold taken from the Province of Ulster Flag, but if your design isn't bad either.
Hopefully The Assembly will take this further sometime soon.
Personally I would rather have this proposed flag...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image
roposed_flag_of_Northern_Ireland.svg...which is basically the old N.I. Government Flag with the crown removed and some yellow/gold taken from the Province of Ulster Flag, but if your design isn't bad either.
Hopefully The Assembly will take this further sometime soon.
20 Nov 2007 @ 16:50
Fantastic argument Beano. I've always shared your view on this new NI flag - The st patricks cross representing ireland, the red hand representing ulster, and the 6 pointed star representing the 6 counties. All of which have combined one way or another to form our wee country - Northern Ireland.
20 Nov 2007 @ 19:58
Comment from: Seamus [Visitor]
The problem being is that while both communities have a common link with Saint Patrick they don't with the Saint Patrick's cross. It is a symbol that may have been cross community in the past, but is seen today as another British symbol to represent Ireland. It is the symbol of the Order of St Patrick, a British royalist order in Ireland, and is used to represent Ireland on the Union Jack. It is a symbol that is not used by nationalists and is view as British. Also, as Beano pointed out in his argument, nationalists don’t view Northern Ireland as a country and don’t want symbols to represent Northern Ireland. As it would require cross community support in the assembly, and the Secretary of State is unlikely to intervene in such a divisive issue, I can see this matter never being solved. Personally, I think the two flag approach is the best idea. The Union Jack, as Northern Ireland is in the UK and has a British majority, but also the Tricolour to represent the massive Irish minority in the North.
24 Nov 2007 @ 14:04
Comment from: Johne MacRanald III [Visitor]
I think the Union flag should be the flag of Ulster.
Cannot understand all the whining about Ulster being part of Ireland. Ulster has been British over 300 years. Does that mean Germany should back all lands their empire of 300 years ago? Should America give all the land back to the Native Americans of 400 years ago? Or all lands back to Spain of 300 years ago, etc.
The Republic of Ireland has 26 countries
and Ulster only 6 counties, there's plenty of space for the Irish in the Republic and for the Ulster-Scots in Ulster. It's just that a bunch of hot head criminal types who like killing, even the killing of their own people, including a poor RC 75 year old man just because he took a part time job with the (British) Post Office after his daughter and son in law were killed in a car crash and the old retired man took the job to help with income to raise his two grand children, the real brave want a be soldiers of the PIRA shot this nice old man several times. The odd thing is, that Gerry Adams liked that British welfare money for years! So why wasn't he shot like the old man.
I live in Tennessee, but have ties to Ulster and I have RC and Prot. friends and both sides get along, but the PIRA will kill RC's who just want to live in peace, In Country Armagh the PIRA has killed more RC's than Army and Police together. But, as far as a regilious war between RC's and Prots., it's crap! It's over power and money by a few un-educated bandits!!
So, fly the Union flag, Ulster is British and the law abiding citizens of Ulster, both RC and Prot. can live with it.
An Ulster-Scot-American in U.S. Occupied Tennessee, C.S.A.
Cannot understand all the whining about Ulster being part of Ireland. Ulster has been British over 300 years. Does that mean Germany should back all lands their empire of 300 years ago? Should America give all the land back to the Native Americans of 400 years ago? Or all lands back to Spain of 300 years ago, etc.
The Republic of Ireland has 26 countries
and Ulster only 6 counties, there's plenty of space for the Irish in the Republic and for the Ulster-Scots in Ulster. It's just that a bunch of hot head criminal types who like killing, even the killing of their own people, including a poor RC 75 year old man just because he took a part time job with the (British) Post Office after his daughter and son in law were killed in a car crash and the old retired man took the job to help with income to raise his two grand children, the real brave want a be soldiers of the PIRA shot this nice old man several times. The odd thing is, that Gerry Adams liked that British welfare money for years! So why wasn't he shot like the old man.
I live in Tennessee, but have ties to Ulster and I have RC and Prot. friends and both sides get along, but the PIRA will kill RC's who just want to live in peace, In Country Armagh the PIRA has killed more RC's than Army and Police together. But, as far as a regilious war between RC's and Prots., it's crap! It's over power and money by a few un-educated bandits!!
So, fly the Union flag, Ulster is British and the law abiding citizens of Ulster, both RC and Prot. can live with it.
An Ulster-Scot-American in U.S. Occupied Tennessee, C.S.A.
07 Dec 2007 @ 00:40
Comment from: Reg [Visitor]
Dear me! Where to begin, Johne!
"Cannot understand all the whining about Ulster being part of Ireland."
It is. It is one of the four provinces of Ireland. This is basic stuff. It's like saying, "I can't understand all the whining about 2+2=4!"
"Ulster has been British over 300 years."
No it hasn't. I would argue that Ulster has never (nor could it possibly be) "British". If you mean how long it has been part of the UK, the Act of Union (for all Ireland) came into force in 1801.
"Does that mean Germany should back all lands their empire of 300 years ago?"
Er...it did! Treaty of Versailles 1919, mate!
"Ulster only 6 counties"
That's a schoolboy error there, Johne.
"So, fly the Union flag"
LOL! I'd like to see someone try to fly the Union Jack in my home town (in Ulster).
I'd suggest you study a few books on IRISH history (that includes Ulster!). You may still be pro-Union in your outlook (fair enough) but at least you'll not be making a fool of yourself with "Ulster is British" nonsense.
Happy reading!
"Cannot understand all the whining about Ulster being part of Ireland."
It is. It is one of the four provinces of Ireland. This is basic stuff. It's like saying, "I can't understand all the whining about 2+2=4!"
"Ulster has been British over 300 years."
No it hasn't. I would argue that Ulster has never (nor could it possibly be) "British". If you mean how long it has been part of the UK, the Act of Union (for all Ireland) came into force in 1801.
"Does that mean Germany should back all lands their empire of 300 years ago?"
Er...it did! Treaty of Versailles 1919, mate!
"Ulster only 6 counties"
That's a schoolboy error there, Johne.
"So, fly the Union flag"
LOL! I'd like to see someone try to fly the Union Jack in my home town (in Ulster).
I'd suggest you study a few books on IRISH history (that includes Ulster!). You may still be pro-Union in your outlook (fair enough) but at least you'll not be making a fool of yourself with "Ulster is British" nonsense.
Happy reading!
07 Dec 2007 @ 10:59
""Ulster has been British over 300 years."
I don't think you can just make the above simple statement or the "No it hasn't" above (Reg). It's one of those "Short answer 'No' with a but, long answer 'Yes' with an if" questions.
Anyway, Johne, in response to "I think the Union flag should be the flag of Ulster." The Union flag is the flag of the UK the same way that the Stars and Stripes is the flag of the USA. That doesn't stop states having their own flags too though. I don't know if you're aware but England, Scotland and Wales have their own flags and NI sort of has one at the moment, though it's not recognised by the government or by nationalists.
I don't think you can just make the above simple statement or the "No it hasn't" above (Reg). It's one of those "Short answer 'No' with a but, long answer 'Yes' with an if" questions.
Anyway, Johne, in response to "I think the Union flag should be the flag of Ulster." The Union flag is the flag of the UK the same way that the Stars and Stripes is the flag of the USA. That doesn't stop states having their own flags too though. I don't know if you're aware but England, Scotland and Wales have their own flags and NI sort of has one at the moment, though it's not recognised by the government or by nationalists.
07 Dec 2007 @ 11:10
NI sort of has one at the moment
Uh, no it doesn't. It is recognized by some sporting organisations and one side of the community. It is as much the flag of Northern Ireland as tricolour, which is also recognized by some sporting organisations and one side of the community.
Uh, no it doesn't. It is recognized by some sporting organisations and one side of the community. It is as much the flag of Northern Ireland as tricolour, which is also recognized by some sporting organisations and one side of the community.
08 Dec 2007 @ 01:27
That's ballocks Seamus. The tricolour is not ever used to represent Northern Ireland, only Ireland as a whole.
It's recognised by the only sporting organisations that specifically represent Northern Ireland and by the majority of the population. The fact that it's not official and unpopular with the rest of the population is why I said "sort of".
It's recognised by the only sporting organisations that specifically represent Northern Ireland and by the majority of the population. The fact that it's not official and unpopular with the rest of the population is why I said "sort of".
08 Dec 2007 @ 02:43
Comment from: nuttal [Visitor]
Personally, i would cut the cross out. Have a yellow background; white star with a red outline and a red hand in the middle
11 Dec 2007 @ 13:48
I don't know, the red cross is the only thing in both the Ulster flag and the Northern Ireland flag that is the same. Even the red hand is different, which will cause contreversy as which red hand would be used?
11 Dec 2007 @ 22:03
Comment from: Reg [Visitor]
"Even the red hand is different, which will cause contreversy as which red hand would be used?"
Are the red hands different? That's curious. I thought they were both the red hand symbol of the O'Neills.
Are the red hands different? That's curious. I thought they were both the red hand symbol of the O'Neills.
12 Dec 2007 @ 15:35
The red hand is the symbol of the O'Neills, but on the Northern Ireland flag the hand has an open thumb, but on an Ulster flag it is a closed thumb.
12 Dec 2007 @ 19:50
The above does seem to be true, although AFAIK it's not actually specified anywhere, it seems to be more by convention than anything.
Anyway, of all the barriers to overcome on this front I don't think that will be a major one, not compared to the fact that
- The Sinners will refuse to recognise any flag that represents Northern Ireland
- The DUP will likely refuse to change from the Union Jack (I don't know if the party itself use the NI flag much, maybe they associate it with the "Official Unionists"?) and some of their supporters will not change the NI flag.
- Many folk have the (admittedly incorrect) perception that the red hand is an exclusively unionist symbol
- Anything without something like the red hand that speaks to history will, IMHO, look like an empty, PC, meaningless fudge that will fail to gain any semblence of widespread respect.
Compared to the above, I don't think the thumb will be a big problem. In fact as far as I'm concerned if you want to insist on using the old one that's fine. I'm not aware of any symbolism attached to the position of the thumb.
Anyway, of all the barriers to overcome on this front I don't think that will be a major one, not compared to the fact that
- The Sinners will refuse to recognise any flag that represents Northern Ireland
- The DUP will likely refuse to change from the Union Jack (I don't know if the party itself use the NI flag much, maybe they associate it with the "Official Unionists"?) and some of their supporters will not change the NI flag.
- Many folk have the (admittedly incorrect) perception that the red hand is an exclusively unionist symbol
- Anything without something like the red hand that speaks to history will, IMHO, look like an empty, PC, meaningless fudge that will fail to gain any semblence of widespread respect.
Compared to the above, I don't think the thumb will be a big problem. In fact as far as I'm concerned if you want to insist on using the old one that's fine. I'm not aware of any symbolism attached to the position of the thumb.
13 Dec 2007 @ 01:09
I don't know wiether or not you typed Sinners by accident or was it a clever little pun, but I don't like the idea of a new Northern Ireland Flag. This idea that we should all be happy, together with one culture is nonsense. We should respect each other's culture but keep them separate instead of this Political Correct idea of complete integration of everything.
13 Dec 2007 @ 14:59
Comment from: paddy [Member]
keep them separate instead of this Political Correct idea of complete integration of everything.
Have to disagree mate, we live in the same place, share the same roads and walk alongside each other every day (unless you are a sad little boy and just stay in your east/west (delete as appropriate) home street).
I am a republican and a catholic, can’t see how other republicans can’t recognise Northern Ireland.
Go down to the local bar and buy a pint, what currency do you use? Who do you pay your taxes to?
Lets be honest, we do live in Northern Ireland, like it or not, and it is not going to change just because you convince yourself that Northern Ireland does not exist and you live in “the north of” Ireland.
If you want to change it and attempt to unite Ireland, first you have to admit, recognise and admit that there is a “(Enphasis on the inverted comas)problem” and Northern Ireland does exist.
The, "we should respect each others cultures" is a valid point and we should, but to a certain extent, these cultures overlap and we DO HAVE TO LEARN TO PUT OUR PAST BEHIND AND LEARN TO SHARE OUR LOVELY REGION.
Have to disagree mate, we live in the same place, share the same roads and walk alongside each other every day (unless you are a sad little boy and just stay in your east/west (delete as appropriate) home street).
I am a republican and a catholic, can’t see how other republicans can’t recognise Northern Ireland.
Go down to the local bar and buy a pint, what currency do you use? Who do you pay your taxes to?
Lets be honest, we do live in Northern Ireland, like it or not, and it is not going to change just because you convince yourself that Northern Ireland does not exist and you live in “the north of” Ireland.
If you want to change it and attempt to unite Ireland, first you have to admit, recognise and admit that there is a “(Enphasis on the inverted comas)problem” and Northern Ireland does exist.
The, "we should respect each others cultures" is a valid point and we should, but to a certain extent, these cultures overlap and we DO HAVE TO LEARN TO PUT OUR PAST BEHIND AND LEARN TO SHARE OUR LOVELY REGION.
14 Apr 2008 @ 10:20
Comment from: paddy [Member]
Good idea, good thinking and a nice design. Even though in my opinion what we need is a radical change, a new look for the 21st century financial booming 'new' Northern Ireland.
Around these parts of the world, we tend to focus to much on symbols, I believe we should drop this and have a modern colourful flag, every other country has a flag with usually just a few colours representing various different things.
Why not have a simple green and blue flag? We could divide it in half, colour one half blue and the other green, to show the two parts of this area.
Instead I think, we should have green and blue stripes, this shows a bit more of unity and integration.
http://s276.photobucket.com/albums/kk30/pscunningham88/?action=view¤t=untitled2-2.jpg
We could replace the blue with orange if so wished.
http://s276.photobucket.com/albums/kk30/pscunningham88/?action=view¤t=untitled-3.jpg
Or you could even add the red hand in the middle (I wouldn’t put a star behind it, just the hand and the stripes).
Simple effective.
Around these parts of the world, we tend to focus to much on symbols, I believe we should drop this and have a modern colourful flag, every other country has a flag with usually just a few colours representing various different things.
Why not have a simple green and blue flag? We could divide it in half, colour one half blue and the other green, to show the two parts of this area.
Instead I think, we should have green and blue stripes, this shows a bit more of unity and integration.
http://s276.photobucket.com/albums/kk30/pscunningham88/?action=view¤t=untitled2-2.jpg
We could replace the blue with orange if so wished.
http://s276.photobucket.com/albums/kk30/pscunningham88/?action=view¤t=untitled-3.jpg
Or you could even add the red hand in the middle (I wouldn’t put a star behind it, just the hand and the stripes).
Simple effective.
14 Apr 2008 @ 14:12
I'm glad to see people open to the idea but if I can point out a couple of problems.
1) Green and Orange is never going to work. Despite what it's supposed to symbolise it manages to end up more 'offensive' (if that's the right word) than just green and white (ironic I know). Look at the rugby team or NI football team, both of which despite leaning slightly towards a Protestant bias (historically anyway) eschew the orange. The blue in the NI kit, AFAIK, stems back to St Patrick's blue, which was the colour the Ireland football team used to wear (pre-WW1ish).
2) It's generally bad design to have two non-metallic colours (e.g. green and blue) actually touch each other without being bordered by a metallic colour (white, silver or gold being the most common).
Finally, on a personal note I think the stripes, even intermingled like that, scream division. I'm not sure about designs with multiple stripes but with large blocks (like the tricolour) it also introduces (and forgive my use of terms, which may not be entirely accurate but I hope you get the general idea) precedence/predominance. The top band in horizontal designs or flagpole side in vertical designs, tend to be considered more 'prestigious' or prominent.
Like I said it's good to see people willing to have a think about it, unfortunately flag design can be more complicated than people imagine (disclaimer: I'm no expert myself).
1) Green and Orange is never going to work. Despite what it's supposed to symbolise it manages to end up more 'offensive' (if that's the right word) than just green and white (ironic I know). Look at the rugby team or NI football team, both of which despite leaning slightly towards a Protestant bias (historically anyway) eschew the orange. The blue in the NI kit, AFAIK, stems back to St Patrick's blue, which was the colour the Ireland football team used to wear (pre-WW1ish).
2) It's generally bad design to have two non-metallic colours (e.g. green and blue) actually touch each other without being bordered by a metallic colour (white, silver or gold being the most common).
Finally, on a personal note I think the stripes, even intermingled like that, scream division. I'm not sure about designs with multiple stripes but with large blocks (like the tricolour) it also introduces (and forgive my use of terms, which may not be entirely accurate but I hope you get the general idea) precedence/predominance. The top band in horizontal designs or flagpole side in vertical designs, tend to be considered more 'prestigious' or prominent.
Like I said it's good to see people willing to have a think about it, unfortunately flag design can be more complicated than people imagine (disclaimer: I'm no expert myself).
14 Apr 2008 @ 14:24
Both cultures do have a lot in common Paddy, and the areas that we have in common have to be built up. But there is no common ground on flags, and I personally don't think there ever will be, and even then it will be a long stretch down the road. I think a flag needs to really speak to people. This is the first symbol that people think of when they think of a place. And a shared Northern Ireland flag to me just screams Political Correctness. I think a mutual respect for each others flags would be the best way to go. Even the flag at the top of the page looks too Unionist for my taste. And I would think that would be the problem with any flag. You will never get a perfect balance between the two communities.
14 Apr 2008 @ 17:12
Seamus I'm under no illusions. I can accept criticism of my proposed design (although "it seems too unionist" is quite pathetic even on that front) but I know there is no point in floating the idea to those who are so unreasonable as to brand any flag at all (not just a specific design) an exercise in "political correctness".
OK so you like division - I think we've established that.
OK so you like division - I think we've established that.
14 Apr 2008 @ 17:19
Comment from: Belfastman [Visitor]
I agree with Seamus the est way would be to fly two flags together. This would not show division but by flying the two flags together it would show Both Cultures can be represented and can sit together side by side. I think that any new flag would never be able to properly recognise both side/Cultures in one flag, and as for unionsists not recognising joint sovereignty, that is a wider issue. If Nationalists and Republicans can accept that Irish Unification can only happen with the consent of gaining support of the other side and respecting their tradition, then Unionsts should get used to the idea that Irish Nationalists and Republicans must also get to have their flag flown in the Cities and Buildings that govern them.
The time for one flag in N.Ireland to have one flag i not now. By having two flags sitting side by side we can only then say that we have the ultimate respect and understanding of the other side, instead of creating a new flag that would not prperly represent either side
The time for one flag in N.Ireland to have one flag i not now. By having two flags sitting side by side we can only then say that we have the ultimate respect and understanding of the other side, instead of creating a new flag that would not prperly represent either side
14 Apr 2008 @ 18:52
Alright Beano, I have already explained earlier on in this blog my opposition to the St Patrick's Cross, it being a British symbol and all [The first wide spread use of the St Patrick's Cross, was in the Order of Saint Patrick, a British Order of Chivalry]. The while field of the flag was used on the Northern Ireland flag to British it up a bit, the Red Hand was changed to the open thumbed version and the six pointed star is also from the Northern Ireland Flag. While not agreeing with the idea of a shared flag, I would be more partial to some of the other designs that at least make the effort to include parts of the Ulster Flag in it.
And Beano, I don't like division, but I recognise that it exists and probably will for a long time. Part of the Flag debate Beano is to discuss whether Northern Ireland needs a flag and I personally don't think it does. The whole idea that everything done in the North must be equal and shared is completely ridiculous and politically correct nonesense, kinda like the Maze stadium plans.
We need full respect for the current traditions on this island before we start inventing new ones.
And Beano, I don't like division, but I recognise that it exists and probably will for a long time. Part of the Flag debate Beano is to discuss whether Northern Ireland needs a flag and I personally don't think it does. The whole idea that everything done in the North must be equal and shared is completely ridiculous and politically correct nonesense, kinda like the Maze stadium plans.
We need full respect for the current traditions on this island before we start inventing new ones.
14 Apr 2008 @ 19:22
Comment from: belfastman [Visitor]
exactly we are just out of a 30 year war in which we have totally disrespected the other side, we need a period in which both flags can be flown together to show that both side show equal respect to the other and that they fully recognise the other sides beliefs, what better way than by flying both flags together.
Then after a period, we might be in a better position to create a new flag, at the moment it is too hotly debated. Even in this forum we are arguing about what the new flag should be or if we need a new one, this proves that both sides at the moment do not yet put the other sides beliefs into the equation and that we dont want to admit that some people like the Tricolour and some like the Union Jack
Then after a period, we might be in a better position to create a new flag, at the moment it is too hotly debated. Even in this forum we are arguing about what the new flag should be or if we need a new one, this proves that both sides at the moment do not yet put the other sides beliefs into the equation and that we dont want to admit that some people like the Tricolour and some like the Union Jack
14 Apr 2008 @ 21:26
Both flags is never going to happen for the simple fact that the union jack and the tricolour are not equal. One is the legitimate flag of the sovereign nation of which Northern Ireland is part AND a flag that a large group of people feel loyalty to while the other is one that a large group of people feel loyalty to. That's not even getting into teh fact that the tricolour and union jack stir up significant amounts of ill-feeling based on all sorts of real and perceived historical grievance.
Seamus, like I said if you don't like my design that's fine. As far as I know there's no symbolism associated with the thumb and it's probably by accident as much as anything that it switched from closed to open, which leads me to question whether you actually find anything wrong with it besides an association with themmuns. Nevertheless I've no objection to reverting to a closed thumb.
You've already made clear you don't think NI needs a flag, fine. That kind of fits in with your close your eyes, pretend it doesn't exist and maybe it'll go away attitude to Northern Ireland so I'd expect nothing less. But your attitude is just a mirror image of the DUP's "We have a flag, it's the Union Jack". If you're happy with the status quo that's up to you. I can accept it, but I think we can do better.
Seamus, like I said if you don't like my design that's fine. As far as I know there's no symbolism associated with the thumb and it's probably by accident as much as anything that it switched from closed to open, which leads me to question whether you actually find anything wrong with it besides an association with themmuns. Nevertheless I've no objection to reverting to a closed thumb.
You've already made clear you don't think NI needs a flag, fine. That kind of fits in with your close your eyes, pretend it doesn't exist and maybe it'll go away attitude to Northern Ireland so I'd expect nothing less. But your attitude is just a mirror image of the DUP's "We have a flag, it's the Union Jack". If you're happy with the status quo that's up to you. I can accept it, but I think we can do better.
15 Apr 2008 @ 01:02
But you're wrong there Beano. I don't try to pretend that Northern Ireland doesn't exist. I will be very happy when it finally ceases to exist but until then it will exist and I have to accept that. There is a difference between accepting the fact that it exists and then trying to support the maintaining of Northern Ireland. I don't believe Northern Ireland should have separate symbols, due to the fact that I don't think Northern Ireland should exist, in the same way I don't think the European Union should exist, thus doesn't need symbols.
You would want Northern Ireland to have it's own flag because a national flag lends itself to a nation. By having a flag that both communities will agree on, it states that both flags are happy with the existence of Northern Ireland, which simply is not true. Any symbol that has Northern Ireland as a separate entity from the rest of Ireland is an anti-republican symbol and thus will alienate a considerable section of the population. So a Northern Ireland flag is, without even discussing the detail of what that flag would be, isn't offensive to republicans, who make up a large section of the people that the flag is supposed to represent. So by definition, what you seek to do here, admirable as it is, is impossible.
Also, you gave me a few soundbytes earlier about me being in favour of division. Well, I have given my point of view on how to end that division, the two flags, or no flags, approach. You on the other hand, only want to end the division on unionist terms by creating a flag of Northern Ireland, despite the very idea of an Northern Ireland flag being offensive to many, many people.
You would want Northern Ireland to have it's own flag because a national flag lends itself to a nation. By having a flag that both communities will agree on, it states that both flags are happy with the existence of Northern Ireland, which simply is not true. Any symbol that has Northern Ireland as a separate entity from the rest of Ireland is an anti-republican symbol and thus will alienate a considerable section of the population. So a Northern Ireland flag is, without even discussing the detail of what that flag would be, isn't offensive to republicans, who make up a large section of the people that the flag is supposed to represent. So by definition, what you seek to do here, admirable as it is, is impossible.
Also, you gave me a few soundbytes earlier about me being in favour of division. Well, I have given my point of view on how to end that division, the two flags, or no flags, approach. You on the other hand, only want to end the division on unionist terms by creating a flag of Northern Ireland, despite the very idea of an Northern Ireland flag being offensive to many, many people.
15 Apr 2008 @ 23:16
Seamus you're the first person to mention a "national flag" here. The four provinces of Ireland have their own flags too. Is that anti-Republican?
2 flags doesn't end division, it reinforces it, and as I've already explained, isn't going to happen until such time as there is joint sovereignty. Since I don't believe that's around the corner I see no point in discussing that option. No flags reeks of the oddball "political correctness" you complained of so much just a couple of posts ago.
I wouldn't have proposed this if I didn't think there were those from a non-unionist background that would be receptive to the idea, but I never imagined someone like yourself would fit that category, so I'll try my best not to get too worked up over your predictable objections. If/when enough of the country accepts the idea the rest of us can move on, nobody will force you to come with us.
15 Apr 2008 @ 23:25
Comment from: belfastman [Visitor]
the issue of joint sovereignty shows that unionists areunwiling to recognise others beliefs and values if I as a nationalist/republican can accept that N.Ireland does exist for the foreseable future and also that I accept a united Ireland will only happen by presuading the other side, then unionists musta accept that ROI does have a part to play in N.Ireland or why else did they help in the goody friday agreement and the peace process.
As I said before by flying two flags would be the best option, it would show that all people recognise that N.Ireland exists and is part of the Union but also that other people see it as having links with the ROI. This would not create division but rather it would help to give both sides a better understandng of the main issue, the maybe in the future a flag can be created that represents all the people of N.Ireland (not ULSTER). If a N.Ireland flag was created then it be one sided wich at the moment would not be helpful but create anger as it does not include the values of what half the people of Nireland believe.
Two Flag would first of all help to ease the suffering that has happened and is the best temporary situation from which
future generations can decide the next step after a healing process
As I said before by flying two flags would be the best option, it would show that all people recognise that N.Ireland exists and is part of the Union but also that other people see it as having links with the ROI. This would not create division but rather it would help to give both sides a better understandng of the main issue, the maybe in the future a flag can be created that represents all the people of N.Ireland (not ULSTER). If a N.Ireland flag was created then it be one sided wich at the moment would not be helpful but create anger as it does not include the values of what half the people of Nireland believe.
Two Flag would first of all help to ease the suffering that has happened and is the best temporary situation from which
future generations can decide the next step after a healing process
16 Apr 2008 @ 12:42
BM you can keep repeating it til your blue in the face and we've all killed ourselves from the boredom but it's still not going to happen. Nobody here has said the RoI doesn't have a role to play, but joint sovereignty isn't even on the radar.
The issue of joint sovereignty doesn't show "unionists areunwiling to recognise others beliefs and values", it shows they are unwilling to submit to joint sovereignty, and why should they? We had an agreement. That agreement didn't include joint sovereignty. Accept it. Try to change it if you wish, but you can't just pretend it into existence. If/when you succeed in getting joint authority two flags would be logical (although still impractical on occasions when/in places where there is only one flag pole).
Until then the Union Jack will remain the only official flag and unionists will continue to use the "Northern Ireland flag" as they do now to represent people and places specifically Northern Irish. Many of them probably won't care either, but if you're happy with sportsmen and women from here, regardless of their identity, being represented on TV by the "Ulster Banner" then it must be OK.
The issue of joint sovereignty doesn't show "unionists areunwiling to recognise others beliefs and values", it shows they are unwilling to submit to joint sovereignty, and why should they? We had an agreement. That agreement didn't include joint sovereignty. Accept it. Try to change it if you wish, but you can't just pretend it into existence. If/when you succeed in getting joint authority two flags would be logical (although still impractical on occasions when/in places where there is only one flag pole).
Until then the Union Jack will remain the only official flag and unionists will continue to use the "Northern Ireland flag" as they do now to represent people and places specifically Northern Irish. Many of them probably won't care either, but if you're happy with sportsmen and women from here, regardless of their identity, being represented on TV by the "Ulster Banner" then it must be OK.
16 Apr 2008 @ 13:21
"The four provinces of Ireland have their own flags too. Is that anti-Republican?"
Republicans don't mind the idea of the four Provinces existing. We do have a problem with the existence of Northern Ireland. It isn't about moving on. Helping to create conditions which stabilize the existence of the state of Northern Ireland is the complete antithesis of Irish Republicanism. You are asking us to agree to something that goes against the very nature of our political belief. It would be like me saying you are in favour of division for doing something Unionist. By republicans agreeing with the creation of a flag for Northern Ireland, they are agreeing, in principle, that Northern Ireland should exist.
If you have a problem with the two flag approach, then lets have a different one. No flag.
No Flag = No Offence
"if you're happy with sportsmen and women from here, regardless of their identity, being represented on TV by the "Ulster Banner" then it must be OK"
The majority of the use of the former "Flag of the Government of Northern Ireland" in sport is used in team sports that have a separate Northern Ireland, like football, and in most of those cases, I don't support that team. In individual sports, like golf, or snooker, they normally don't use the flags all that much, preferring to use the acronyms like IRE, NIR or GB.
Republicans don't mind the idea of the four Provinces existing. We do have a problem with the existence of Northern Ireland. It isn't about moving on. Helping to create conditions which stabilize the existence of the state of Northern Ireland is the complete antithesis of Irish Republicanism. You are asking us to agree to something that goes against the very nature of our political belief. It would be like me saying you are in favour of division for doing something Unionist. By republicans agreeing with the creation of a flag for Northern Ireland, they are agreeing, in principle, that Northern Ireland should exist.
If you have a problem with the two flag approach, then lets have a different one. No flag.
No Flag = No Offence
"if you're happy with sportsmen and women from here, regardless of their identity, being represented on TV by the "Ulster Banner" then it must be OK"
The majority of the use of the former "Flag of the Government of Northern Ireland" in sport is used in team sports that have a separate Northern Ireland, like football, and in most of those cases, I don't support that team. In individual sports, like golf, or snooker, they normally don't use the flags all that much, preferring to use the acronyms like IRE, NIR or GB.
19 Apr 2008 @ 19:31
Comment from: Junkmale [Visitor] · http://junk-male.blogspot.com
Using that argument then Seamus do you agree, therefore that Republicans should also object to the flag of the Republic of Ireland being used? Accepting that the ROI exists would also be an acceptance of partition would it not?
Surely someone who feels as you do should accept neither NI or ROI?
Surely someone who feels as you do should accept neither NI or ROI?
19 Apr 2008 @ 23:06
The important point there Junkmale is the "flag of the Republic of Ireland" bit. Republicans consider the Tricolour to be the flag of the entire island, not just the Republic.
20 Apr 2008 @ 01:10
Comment from: Junkmale [Visitor] · http://junk-male.blogspot.com
Thanks Seamus. Thats something i could never really understand? I going to post something about it on my own blog sometime soon and i would value your comments.
What would be the case if e.g. a United Ireland was decalred next week. The Irish Tri Colour would then be unacceptable to a significant minority (as the Ulster flag is now). Would you agree that if this was the scenario that the Tri Colour would have to be replaced by a flag that was acceptable to all sections of the new Ireland?
What would be the case if e.g. a United Ireland was decalred next week. The Irish Tri Colour would then be unacceptable to a significant minority (as the Ulster flag is now). Would you agree that if this was the scenario that the Tri Colour would have to be replaced by a flag that was acceptable to all sections of the new Ireland?
20 Apr 2008 @ 01:25
I would think there would definitely have to be dialogue and debate over what symbols an all Ireland state would have. The major difficulty with the flag is, as I have pointed out in this blog about a new Northern Ireland flag, there doesn’t seem to be a way to gain a compromise on a flag. The very symbolism of the Tricolour is to generate unity, the traditional Gaelige culture in a lasting truce with Protestant Orangeism. I can’t see a way that the flag could be more inclusive. But I understand that a large number of Unionists in the North have a problem with the Tricolour, due to its association with militant Republicanism. Then there is an added problem of Unionists would still want in the event of a United Ireland for Northern Ireland to stay distinctly separate within a United Ireland, and so might not take too well to an all Ireland flag in general. A flag that may be used is the Cláirseach on a Green field, but the major problem with that flag is that it is also the Flag of Leinster.
20 Apr 2008 @ 12:50
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