Everything Ulster - Latest comments on £110k For Non-Sectarian St Patrick's Parade

aonghus [Visitor] in response to: £110k For Non-Sectarian St Patrick's Parade

aonghus [Visitor] — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:41:30 +0000

although Dissenters dont believe in pilgrimage for rewards or Blessings

Neither do Catholics - there is no magic in Pilgrimages - they are just a useful way to focus the mind on God. That brings rewards.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm

aonghus [Visitor] in response to: £110k For Non-Sectarian St Patrick's Parade

aonghus [Visitor] — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:33:11 +0000

About Cons suggestion, this link

Croagh Patrick

aonghus [Visitor] in response to: £110k For Non-Sectarian St Patrick's Parade

aonghus [Visitor] — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:31:59 +0000

More penny pinching by our government.

Many people down here would be as unhappy about it as you are, Paul.

But I suggest you ought not base your opinion of us on any one newspaper.

If I would to do the same for Unionists.....

paul connor [Visitor] in response to: £110k For Non-Sectarian St Patrick's Parade

paul connor [Visitor] — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:03:50 +0000

you know , I went on about how nice all this would be , and I really try to mean it , but then I see things like this :
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=668743

and the hatred I feel towards the Irish Republic , and the total repugnance I feel at having anything to do with it, can not be expressed in words.

paul connor [Visitor] in response to: £110k For Non-Sectarian St Patrick's Parade

paul connor [Visitor] — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 13:11:40 +0000

Isn't funny how smooth things can go when we leave Gerry and Ian out ?

I think your ideas sound great Con(although Dissenters dont believe in pilgrimage for rewards or Blessings, seeing it as a superfical act, but who cares we could go to the mountain just for fun.)

Con [Visitor] in response to: £110k For Non-Sectarian St Patrick's Parade

Con [Visitor] — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 05:41:53 +0000

thats me told

beano [Member] in response to: £110k For Non-Sectarian St Patrick's Parade

beano [Member] — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 05:21:36 +0000

Fair play Con - your ability to look towards the future and not the past is admirable - but still, posting once would have been enough

Con [Visitor] in response to: £110k For Non-Sectarian St Patrick's Parade

Con [Visitor] — Thu, 10 Nov 2005 05:10:35 +0000

Woah there boys, I think I should clarify what I meant, for a start I am not referring to Croke Park, I am talking about the highest mountain in Ireland, that is a place of pilgrimmage to many who find it spiritually enlightening to climb in their bare feet.(?!) in honour of St. Patrick.
I did not say that it is a feast day for Catholics and no Protestants need apply, that would be an apalling sectarian attitude which has no place in our society.
Politicising St. Patricks day is a travesty, and should not be tolerated, whether it is SF in Belfast, or the AOH in NYC.
I believe it is right that a parade should be held in Belfast, I also believe it should be open to all. Obviously that means no sectarian symbols should be displayed. To me, the Irish flag is not such a symbol, but I accept that to many, it is. Therefore, leave them at home.
I would like to see nothing more than a return to the days when people from the Falls felt free to do their shopping on the Shankill, or wee lads from Andytown would watch the parades on the 12th ( the Field used to be at Finaghy, is that correct? )
Of course, the days when the Shankill was surpassed as a shopping destination, only by Royal Ave. are sadly no more, but that is not really what I' m talking about.
I realise how it must have come across when I mentioned the Irish/British sections of the population, but if I had said "you are Irish too, get with the program" is it not fair to say you might have responded with I'm not Irish and you can't tell me I am?????
We are all Irish, our definitions of Irishness may differ, but then so do our cultures, sports, languages etc. My definition of Irishness is no more valid than yours.
Being Irish is not the sole preserve of SF. There are Irish speaking, GAA devotees, who stand proudly beneath the Irish flag, who loathe SF. ( ever read the Irish Independant?) It means different things to different people.
Protestants have every bit as much right to St. Patrick as Catholics, after all he is buried in the CoI churchyard in Downpatrick.
Perhaps if he were to come today, he would use the shamrock to teach us the error of our ways, Catholic, Protestant and you guessed it, Dissenter, being three parts of a whole. ( does that sound political? )
I hope I've explained myself a bit better this time, bloody hard on a mobile!!
Perhaps someday, Protestants will be able to look on the Tricolour for what it means to Catholics, and Catholics can look on the Union flag for what it means to Protestants, rather than each seeing it as a symbol of oppression. If by banning both at a St Patricks Day parade we can move a step closer to that day, then I'm all for it.

paul connor [Visitor] in response to: £110k For Non-Sectarian St Patrick's Parade

paul connor [Visitor] — Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:51:56 +0000

I would have to disagree there con, surely in a divided city like Belfast, a bit of political correctness is long over due? To many people the explicitly Irish Gaelic / Republican Symbols paraded in Dublin and Belfast are harmless , but to the Protestants many of them have become the standards of persecutors and murders, I am not saying this is what they mean to you (that would be a ridiculous thing to content ), but surely you can see its ridiculous for anyone to pretend they could ever mean anything else to us, and are therefore best left out of an event if it is preferable that protestants join in (n.b. id say the same thing about Union Flags and Red Hand standards)
To suggest that only one half of the Irish community can determine the character if celebrations is really a bit nasty, It is not simply a celebration of â€˜Irish nessâ€™ on the terms and definitions of the majority community, we to have the right to celebrate our â€˜Irish nessâ€™ in a way meaningful to us, and if we can all do it together, surely we arrive at a better, more real, celebration of the character of this island and its peoples?.
As for Diageo and their exploitation, well, enough (Irish) people buy into it, so is it the tail waging the dog? Is Diegoâ€™s marketing strategy simply to give people what people want? I agree with you though the dancing clown Mick stereotype (endorsed by every one of those people in â€˜kiss me Iâ€™m Irishâ€™ T- shits and every one with a green wigs on) is embarrassing , (and if you look at what C.S. Lewis said on the subject, it was like this before diageo)
Itâ€™s like your definition of what the day means, Mass and Croagh Park? Now if thatâ€™s the way you want to go fair enough , its not doing anyone any harm , but to suggest this is an encapsulation of the man and the day that the Protestants can take part in would be farce , there is nothing there that would make us proud, we have a valid historical inheritance from Patrick and we have a right to at least determine how we will celebrate it , like I said I donâ€™t want your day to be sterilised, (and nor ours) but I do feel that de-politicising the events in Belfast, Dublin and New York would lift the Tone (;>), and be conducive to â€˜bridge buildingâ€™ if we can have at least some commonality in the celebrations, i.e. we work together to find a meaning in Patrickâ€™s day that we can share openly , not simply force all who would partake to comply blindly to the definitions of the majority community. Such relentless pursuit of monoculture can only lead to an adoration of our joined history and a virtual cultural apartheid. As for corporations making millions, it pays wages and puts bear in the taps, and I would seriously content its not exploitation, itâ€™s the market wants, the sense of Irish ness the Irish crowds buy into.

â€A section of Belfast's population are Irish, another section are British. That is reality.
If the Irish section of the population wishes to celebrate their Irish ness by waving Irish flags etc. on the patron saint of Irelandâ€™s day, so be it. If the British section wish to celebrate their British ness on their day- 12/07 or Ulster Day, so be it.â€

Such a polarisation of traditions would be (and is) a disaster. Compromise must be reached to make everyone comfortable with different events, dignified cooperation rather than total separation seems to me to be a better option (thatâ€™s co-operation and not Republican domination)

â€ Would a good, fitting and worthy celebration of St. Padraig not be the lighting of bonfires throughout the country from the same hills and mountains that we have all been taught that he caused to be lit?
Antrim meets Down meets Armagh meets Louth meets............ leading to a service of Thanks from Croagh Patrick from all of usâ€

That sounds lovely, us Orangies love a big bonfire anyway, and it would be less plastic than the current trot out, more romantic, although how about instead of a thanks giving at Croagh Park, how about Slemish, to avoid politicising the event? Republicanism is a world away from Patrick and when you look at St. drunken Mickâ€™s day on the T.V. â€“ donâ€™t you thing their demeaning quest for popularity has turned the day into enough of a freak show already ?

â€If we are to enjoy INCLUSIVITY we must respect DIVERSITY
Peace all. â€œ Amen.

beano [Member] in response to: £110k For Non-Sectarian St Patrick's Parade

beano [Member] — Wed, 09 Nov 2005 12:44:27 +0000

"A section of Belfast's poulation are Irish, another section are British. That is reality.
If the Irish section of the population wish to celebrate their Irishness by waving Irish flags etc. on the patron saint of Irelands day, so be it. If the British section wish to celebrate their Britishness on their day- 12/07 or Ulster Day, so be it."

Con - it all boils back down to the old question of identity. You're already working on the assumption that the non-nationalist "half" of the city is not Irish but just British. Many of them would not agree with that assessment (although the uneducated spides likely would).

Therein lies the fundamental flaw. While Unionists may not fit in with the modern day definition of Irish (and certainly not with the paddywhackery associated with St Patrick's day) many of their ancestors did and even my grandparents (now living abroad) would talk about back home in Ireland.

I think Unionists have lost any sense of Irishness, in no small part due to the behaviour of Irish so-called Republicans over the years and it's a shame. This sort of St Patrick's day celebration could be a first (very small) step to overcoming that and who knows, maybe some day Unionists will come to the conclusion that they're just another type of Irish. I don't think the chance to build bridges should go to waste.

The 12th July is fundamentally political. There's no reason for St Patrick's day to be the same.