"Is this how modern-day republicans interpret "cherishing the nation's children equally"? "

You, I and most other Unionists knew it, now the rest of the island has had the wake-up call about the level of raw sectarian hatred that festers amongst the dark corners of Irish Republicanism.

As a Southerner I would like to express my horror at what happened today. Remember this was 400 people out of a population of 1.2 million in Dublin. It does not represent us. I am saddened if the impression to the contrary has been conveyed by these idiots. Hope they get what's coming to them.

Apparently some of them weren't even from this island and others were Northern republicans.

I think this goes to prove that Sinn Fein/IRA don’t want a PROD about the place.

A real own goal - hows Gerry and Martin going to explain this in Washington ?

Headlines on CNN “IRA supporters disrupt parade, attack police”

JC

Brian I hope you're right, but it still sounds out a negative message about the fate of the British minority should a united Ireland ever come about.

The 7/7 bombs in London were perpetrated by a "small minority", as were most of the atrocities that took place in Northern Ireland during 30 years of terrorist attacks, especially in the early days.

I have to say as a Southerner who takes a keen interest in Northern Ireland I was shocked and sickened by today's events. The march should have been allow to proceed without any interference by so-called republicans. Although I have to say in their defence that it seems as if Sinn Fein (a party I loathe!) had no part in today's events. The main problem was the decision to march on the Northside and if the march had stayed on the Southside I suspect there would have been none of today's trouble. Sad day for the new Ireland though.

As a Irishman who lost a relative in the 74 Dublin bombings, I am ashamed of the vicious intolerance displayed by the "counter-protesters" in Dublin today. If they are calling themselves republican didn't they hear what happened to a peaceful protest march in Derry on Bloody Sunday? If they're carrying tricolours do they ever take a look at them? One third is orange and another is the colour of peace. Attacking peaceful protests and demonstrations cannot foster peace or republicanism.

Moved From: Love Ulster Hate-Fest Embarrasses All
Posted by: Pete

Hey, those lunatic RIRA/INLA fringes who smashed up Dublin today are not representative of our views.

It was truly shameful for us. It's so embarrassing.

However, this is an awfully awkward message to write, considering that the visiting group - apparently - are a mix of victims families, politicians, and former terrorists.

But whoever the groups are, they have a right to protest, they have a right to march to government, provided it's legal and peaceful, and we need to defend their freedom to do so. We need them. We need their views. We need their dialogue. We need them to understand us, and there is no future without them.

Who were those mad dog republicans? Where did they come from? Do they really think that us southerners will tolerate that stuff in 2006? It's so annoying, I can't believe that our state has been so shamed in the eyes of the unionist community, in that we didn't realise these thugs would show up, and spoil a milestone day on the road to a lasting peace.

Obviously their goal was a Divided Ireland, not a United one. Disgusting behaviour.

Dublin resident here, truly embarrassed at the pictures going around the world of how our great city has been shamed by a few hundred idiots - mainly kids with no understanding of the politics or history of our island. That the rioters attacked the gardai is an indication that they have no respect for the Irish state whatsoever.

Clearly there was some sinister orchestration to get these thugs co-ordinated though, and that's very sad.

In the peaceful and united Ireland I hope to see someday, we will acknowledge and respect every community's right to expression on the island.

It may have been too early in the process to have attempted such a controversial march in Dublin.

A new perspective on this. It has been claimed in a recent edition of Daily Ireland, that Love Ulster leader Willie Frazer refused to rule out the parade carrying a photo of Robert McConnell, a loyalist murderer allegedly involved in the Dublin-Monaghan bombings of 1974, in which 33 innocent Southerners died. Now I am still opposed to the violence, but I think that asking people to accept that kind of provocation is crossing a line between cultural expression and provocation don't you think?

Here is part of the article:

"Loyalists may carry Dublin bomber pictures

by Ciarán Barnes

23/02/2006

Organisers of a loyalist march through Dublin have said they cannot guarantee that images of a man accused of murdering 26 people in the city will not not be displayed during the demonstration.

Speaking to Daily Ireland yesterday, Love Ulster organiser Willie Frazer said: “I can’t give a guarantee a photograph of Robert McConnell will not be carried because I wouldn’t be against anyone carrying Robert’s photograph.”

Robert McConnell was a dual member of the Ulster Defence Regiment and Ulster Volunteer Force. He murdered scores of Catholics in the 1970s.
He played a part in the 1974 Dublin and Monaghan bombings in which 33 people died. Twenty-six died in the Dublin attack.

Speaking in 1999, John Weir, a former member of the RUC with whom Robert McConnell went on murder missions, implicated him in a further eight killings.
The mass murderer was shot dead by the IRA in 1976. Images of him have been carried at previous rallies organised by Mr Frazer’s victims group Families Acting for Innocent Relatives.

Despite the weight of evidence linking McConnell to at least 41 sectarian murders, Mr Frazer defended the killer’s reputation.
“Anybody I know who knew Robert would say there is no way he was involved in anything. He was involved with the security forces and he helped the SAS and stuff like that but a lot of people would say that was just part of his job,” said Mr Frazer.
Relatives of those murdered in the Dublin and Monaghan bombings criticised Mr Frazer. Margaret Irwin of the Justice for the Forgotten group said his defence of McConnell was “very insensitive”.
She said: “We have very good information that McConnell was involved with the gang who we are convinced carried out the Dublin and Monaghan bombings.
“We believe McConnell was involved in up to 55 murders. There can be no doubt he was heavily involved with loyalist paramilitaries.”
Up to 1,000 loyalists and six bands are expected to take part in Saturday’s Love Ulster parade along O’Connell Street. The march is to start at 12.30pm and is expected to last one hour.
Orange Order members will take part but will not wear sashes or collarettes.
Yesterday morning, Republican Sinn Féin held a press conference in Dublin at which the party unveiled plans to protest against the march. The Continuity IRA has also vowed to disrupt the parade."

"Comment from: Stephen Tonge [Visitor]
I have to say as a ...The main problem was the decision to march on the Northside and if the march had stayed on the Southside I suspect there would have been none of today's trouble. 25th February 2006 @ 23:24 " that has got to be one of the most stupid things I've seen written on the 'net. A United Irel is one thing but you don't even want to talk about Dublin as a single entity!! What happened in OConnell St was inevitable (not justifable) and therefore should have been countered by sufficient Gardai. McDowell will be to blame. I can't imagine you'd like the darling of Ranalagh to suffer the blame tho' ? I still can't get over what you wrote.

BB - I'm not a fan of Frazer but I take anything DI says with a pinch of salt. Even if what they're saying were true, I'm not sure it's much different to the glorification of Bobby Sands or other Republican "volunteers" that the people of Belfast have to put up with all the time.

now the rest of the island has had the wake-up call about the level of raw sectarian hatred that festers amongst the dark corners of Irish Republicanism.

Paul, answer us this. Were (or were not) Jeffrey Donaldson and Willie Frazer travelling on this jaunt in the company of Loyalist marching bands?

Donaldson and Frazer were there. They handed in a letter to Michael McDowell as far as I'm aware.

I have no idea if there were "loyalist marching bands" present. What's that got to do with the price of spuds?

I have no idea if there were "loyalist marching bands" present.

Well, yes, there were, as is very widely known. In fact, I snapped a few photos of them for posterity (some video, too).

What's that got to do with the price of spuds?

It's to do with (quote) "raw sectarian hatred". Why were Jeffrey and Willie travelling in such company?

Did you not read the original post?

They were "calling for the Dublin government to hold an enquiry into state involvement in arming the IRA".

Is it a surprise that loyalists would support such a call?

If you want to point me in the direction of the pictures (you can email them to me if you like) that evidence these people displaying "raw sectarian hatred" during the march that would certainly put a different slant on things.

EWI
You know very well from previous debates my views on Love Ulster.
I'd rather the OO and the "loyalist bands" hadn't been involved.

HOWEVER there were also IRA victims present, MPS, ordinary law abiding Unionists etc. Surely you wouldn't dispute their right to present their case and to march in what you would claim is their capital city?

But on this occasion they were prevented from exercising that democratic right by thugs, who were motivated in the main by "raw sectarian hatred" Do you dispute that?

Are you also disputing my claim that "raw sectarian hatred" festers amongst the dark corners of Irish Republicanism?

HOWEVER there were also IRA victims present, MPS, ordinary law abiding Unionists etc. Surely you wouldn't dispute their right to present their case and to march in what you would claim is their capital city?

No, I wouldn't. But that doesn't change the fact that there were Loyalist paramilitaray organisations planning to march through the streets of Dublin yesterday, with the full knowledge, approval and assistance of Donaldson, Frazer & Co. I'd love to get wee Jeffrey on the record about these particular new friends of his.

But on this occasion they were prevented from exercising that democratic right by thugs, who were motivated in the main by "raw sectarian hatred" Do you dispute that?

I described the rioters in Dublin on my own blog as "scumbags", which I'd say is clear enough.

Are you also disputing my claim that "raw sectarian hatred" festers amongst the dark corners of Irish Republicanism?

No, I certainly don't. But I'm concerned at the picture being painted of the Love Ulster crowd as cuddly, peace-loving democrats when the reality is far from the truth.

Beano - you may (or may not: I welcome clarification) see nothing wrong with these Loyalist paramilitaries, but please don't expect people in Dublin to feel the same way.

EWI my position on loyalist paramilitaries is the same as my position on republican paramilitaries. My position on Love Ulster (specifically its online forums) has been articulated here and here for the record. However, the parade was not strictly speaking a "Love Ulster parade" but a protest by victims groups, supported by, among others, Love Ulster (I'm still not quite sure technically who Love Ulster consists of).

However, saying "paramilitary organisations" marching through Dublin, is similar, in my view, to saying there were "paramilitary organisations" marching through Londonderry on Bloody Sunday.

There were most likely members of said organisations present on both occasions. However at the time it would seem like they weren't posing a threat to anyone and the parade was not a paramilitary parade.

I'll repeat my request for any evidence that the victims parade was showing signs of "raw sectarian hatred."

However, the parade was not strictly speaking a "Love Ulster parade" but a protest by victims groups, supported by, among others, Love Ulster (I'm still not quite sure technically who Love Ulster consists of).

If not Love Ulster, then who? FAIR?

However, saying "paramilitary organisations" marching through Dublin, is similar, in my view, to saying there were "paramilitary organisations" marching through Londonderry on Bloody Sunday.

How so? Loyalist marching bands are as close to Loyalist paramilitarism as makes no difference. I don't see the connection with Bloody Sunday - perhaps you can elucidate on this.

I'll repeat my request for any evidence that the victims parade was showing signs of "raw sectarian hatred."

Will you, or will you not, concede that there were Loyalist marching bands at this so-called victims' march? Further to that, please explain how you view such bands.

"I don't see the connection with Bloody Sunday - perhaps you can elucidate on this."

It's widely believed that the IRA, such as existed at the time, hijacked the "civil rights" parade for their own ends. If I remember correctly I read somewhere recently that some of the leaders of the CR movement had called for the march not to go ahead, but that's getting a bit side tracked.

I will not concede that there were "Loyalist marching bands" there until I have evidence to support such a position. That would just seem premature. Also, your sweeping comment about them being "as close to paramilitarism as you can get" is clearly POV. Were any of the members of the march posing a threat to the peace or did any of them look like they had any intent of breaking any laws?

Where were RSF et al in January 99 when 45,000 people from 'da nort' were matching through Dublin city centre festooned with Ulster Flags (complete with crown) on the way to the European Rugby Cup Final? We would have loved to meet them that day.

Well Beano, check this out for pretty good evidence:

http://www.ireland.com/

Is this how modern-day republicans interpret "cherishing the nation's children equally"? " You, I and most other Unionists knew it, now the rest of the island has had the wake-up call about the level of raw sectarian hatred that festers amongst the dark corners of Irish Republicanism. Paul, i think this is a bit over the top and opportunistic as usual.. People on this island won't fall for that 'told you so' line. The dup think this is great. Southerners don't really care if the likes of the dup are upset at this as far as we are concerned the dup are a lost cause that will do business with no one ever so are defunct really and their bigoted opinions mean nothing to us. The parade wasn't welcome but would have been tolerated by most but a gang of yound fellas made a fool of the guards here..

From memory, one of the reports I read said that 6 bands were taking part.

So what?

another southener here... just a few points as an outside observer of saturdays events......

the irish constitution states that every person is allowed to demonstrate by peaceful means.... i had no problem with the love ulster march going ahead on saturday but was dubious about the chosen route ... i.e past garden of remberence, the parnell monument (a protestant as it happens) and past the gpo the site of the 1916 rising.
(another route could have been better suited)

- several corporation estates adjoin this area whith the majority of the residents apolitical .... the only intrest in saturdays events was due to ill informed "bar stool republicism". take a look at the photos for yourselves ... runners, tracksuits and soccer tops ... scangers as we call them in dublin akin to what the english call chavs. look at the stores they looted ... foot locker and other sports shops .. saturday quickly stopped being an anti loylist demo and more of an anti police riot akin to those in NI in the past


please tell me that you believe that the majority of what you refer to "the free state" are capable of such mindless violence and sectarianism??? - i am disgusted that these youths used my national flag which represents peace between both traditions of our island (white representing peace between green and orange) to "mask up" and attack the organs and rights i have as a citizen of ireland

"You, I and most other Unionists knew it, now the rest of the island has had the wake-up call about the level of raw sectarian hatred that festers amongst the dark corners of Irish Republicanism. Paul, i think this is a bit over the top and opportunistic as usual"

Paddy I did not say the entire Republican movement or indeed Irish popuilation are sectarian.
But despite what you may have been led to believe anti-Protestant sectarianism, anti-Brit racism or whatever you'd like to call it exists within Irish society.

And I am by no means a supporter of the DUP so I've no idea why you introduced them into the argument,I hope you weren't stereotyping

"Well Beano, check this out for pretty good evidence:"

Wow, they really did look menacing didn't they?

enda:

"take a look at the photos for yourselves ... runners, tracksuits and soccer tops ... scangers as we call them in dublin akin to what the english call chavs"

These are the exact same people (spides) who involve themselves in riots up here, but it makes little difference to the damage they can do.

Someone on Liveline on RTE Radio 1 (available free online) said that he saw UDA banners among the would-be marchers. So much for this just being a victims march. The Gardai reportedly told them to put it away. Otherwise I could accept the march and I condemn the violence. But let's examine 'Love Ulster' closely to see are they really what they say they are. Why was Willie Frazer refused a gun license?

"Someone on Liveline on RTE Radio 1 (available free online) said that he saw UDA banners among the would-be marchers. "

Presuming that happened, it's shameful. It shouldn't have even taken Gardai. At the march in Belfast, I think I recall hearing of marshalls giving off to dickheads doing something similar.

to beano:

"take a look at the photos for yourselves ... runners, tracksuits and soccer tops ... scangers as we call them in dublin akin to what the english call chavs"

These are the exact same people (spides) who involve themselves in riots up here, but it makes little difference to the damage they can do.

damage in physical terms of criminal damage on life an property

also damage to the people - please dont tarnish us in the south with the one brush

beano:

just re-read my last post, i didnt mean that you were ------ was just trying to state that some mere minority of scangers have caused so much damge and that i hope that the actions of so few odes not reflect on the majority of law abiding citizens..

I'll do you a deal Enda - I won't tar Southerners if you don't tar Unionists

Now - group hug!

i don't by any means, i am well read and educated :-)

group hug and a happy song

I think this image is one of many reasons why the shouldnt have been allowed to march!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rod_and_yensan/26799901/in/set-959206/

You've got me puzzled there Marty.

Did they remove the wall, put it on the back of the bus and parade it all round Dublin or what?

You know I'm tempted to remove that comment just for being so f**king stupid, but I don't like editing.

Marty - what has that wall got to do with the protest?

"Someone on Liveline on RTE Radio 1 (available free online) said that he saw UDA banners among the would-be marchers"
Brian Boru

I wasn't there, so obviously it's difficult to know if the guy ringing in, was telling the truth or not. If he was, then the Gardai should not only have told the idiot to put the UDA banner away, but also arrested him and put him in the cells for the night( where he would have had a lot of company who may not have been 100% sympathetic to his religion or "politics")

But what I find strange is that although photos of the bands have emerged, we've seen no concrete evidence of the UDA banner, we've got the word of one radio chat-in caller. If it had been pulled out surely it would have been flashed all round the internet and irish media? I' may have missed it but as far as I know I've seen nothing about it elsewhere.

Beano,
Leave Marty and my previous comment up, it's lightened the discussion a bit!

Im from the republic nobody expected this attack, and im sickened and saddened by the disgaceful behavior of a few scum bags who are not in any way a representative of the views of the people in the republic. I believe the marchers should be given a secial invitation back to dublin to present their case to our nations capital as is their right in an ireland of equals!

Hey, as was already mentioned every society has scumbags who look for an excuse to act like idiots. However in my opinion they played directly into the hands of the "Love Ulster" group who want to show the south as a bunch of sectarian bigots. They could have easily minimized the inciteful material they were bringing with them, such as 6 bands and wearing orange lillies, etc. If this was a victims support group I can't understand why they felt the need to broadcast they were part of the orange order which as far as I'm aware is a seperate entity, unless its orange order victims of the troubles. For me this was clearly intended to incite any idiots who wanted an excuse to rob a new hoody.
For me it is akin to to a march of southern Irish people through Belfast, say, flying tricolours, wearing green and commemorating the 1916 reason or the signing of the treaty. Clearly this would be quite insensitive, inciteful and of no benefit to anyone.
I just find it interesting that as far as I know the st. patricks day parade in Belfast has a ban on tricolours and irish paraphernalia which i think is perfectly reasonable to have a peaceful parade.
I hope I'm not coming across as some anti-prodestant idiot, cos I'm not, but to be honest I find it very difficult to take the FAIR group seriously considering the amount of hypocrisy it contains, especially on it's webpage.

Hang on, the Orangemen who attended the victims parade did so as individuals. They made a conscious decision to not wear their collarettes for the day in case some people decided it offended them.

I'm not sure why a marching band was necessary, but to be honest, I'm also not sure why it was such a big deal that people seem to think it legitimised the rioters.

Willie Frazer said that they were going to wear orange lillies instead of the collarettes because they didn't have permission from the grand lodge and that some of some other orange order might be wearing theirs. They were going to be carrying union jack flags. And bringing six flute bands that people might associate with playing orange order songs about the battle of the boyne and wading through Catholic blood would not be a sensitive gesture.
I didn't say anything about legitimizing the rioters, but I think that it was intended to incite the crowd. Also carrying a photo of a key suspect in the Dublin-Monaghan bombings wasn't the most tactful thing in the world to do.
As I said if, as the say, they just want to raise awareness of their plight then I don't see why they can't just march with the victims names and photos. It seems unnecessary and inciteful to bring orange order bands, union jacks, etc. with them. This is just my opinion.

The assertion that union flags, marching bands, unionism, orangeism and Ulster protestants in general are essentially sectarian, is in my opinion sectarian itself.

It seems the underlying message from Nationalists is, "we don't mind unionists, just so long as they don't express their identity in any way, shape or form whatsoever."

"Loyalist", by which of course you mean "Paramilitary" marching bands do exist. The majority of marching bands are about music, culture and tradition; there a thousands of private concerts, competitions, meetings and practice sessions for a majority of these bands. why do that if your just doing it for bigoted reasons? To kit out an entire band in a uniform costs almost £25,000, are their not cheaper ways to be sectarian? Your assertion that they are the closest thing to paramilitaries is just plain old defamation. There are thousands of marching bands with absolutely no paramilitary connection whatsoever. The idea that it justifies republican violence is the same old republican bigoted nonsense "Prods are bigots, everything they do is bigoted, we're not bigots - its alright to attack Prods and murder them" same as like saying "All IRA men are Catholics, all Nationalists are Catholics, lets attack or murder Catholics"

Flags in Ireland are controversial, but I believe we need to respect what they symbolise to the people who use them. The tricolour has a noble intent behind it, yet the republican movement have made it a sectarian symbol, the union flag is a symbol of unity and one of the worlds great democracies, and loyalists paramilitaries mis-use it. If unionists can't use the symbol of their identity without being brandished sectarian, it demonstrates the mind-set of nationalists : "Prod=Bigot, without exception", and if you can't accept it for one day then how is it going to work in United Ireland? Cherish the traditions of unionists in a United Ireland? Just so long as they keep them were no one can see it!!!

It is clear why the "love ulster" rallie was held in Dublin, the same reason as loyalist marches occur in the North and in Scotland. To antagonise, intimmidate, and agrivate Catholics. Or to "put Catholics in their place" as they would put it. This is the same people who attempt to justify invading a country, removing its rightful owners and then treat them as second class citizens in their own country. The Irish Republic is not bigoted (although with its history of persecution at the hands of the british it has every reason to be). It does not treat Protestants any different from Catholics. Wolfe Tone, Robert Emmet and Charles Stuart Parnell were all Protestant.
Ulster on the other hand is a diluted tyranny. The Harland and Wolfe shipyards, had a workforce 96% Protestant. The city of Derry has a poulation of 73% Catholic yet it still has more Protestant constituences i.e more Protestant seats in parliament. Infact outwith Belfast, Antrim and North Armagh the rest of the ulster has a Catholic majority, yet is forced to live within an empire where it does not wish to be. This contradicts the D.U.P, (DEMOCRATIC unionist party), what actually does Democracy mean? It means the majority's will prevales. The unionists who have a stranglehold over the north of our country are corrupt and will always believe that they are somehow right when they are really only defending something that have gained by ill means. Oh...there is nothing to love about ulster. If they wish to be in the British empire then go and live in Britain.

Thank you.

Your ignorance of all things.... well, just all things, demonstrates exactly why we don't wish to be absorbed into a country whose children have been brought up to hate us.

I don't even know where to begin correcting the bile spewed there Joseph.

"The city of Derry has a poulation of 73% Catholic yet it still has more Protestant constituences i.e more Protestant seats in parliament."

That's just a bizarre statement. I can't begin to understand where you pulled this from - oh and there is no British Empire any more. Times have moved on from 1950 1930, maybe you could catch up some time.

"It is clear why the "love ulster" rallie was held in Dublin, the same reason as loyalist marches occur in the North and in Scotland. To antagonise, intimmidate, and agrivate Catholics. Or to "put Catholics in their place" as they would put it."

Well since you've demonstrated such an amazing insight into the Ulster psyche in the rest of your comment, I guess I should just accept that someone who has obviously never had a serious conversation with a unionist (I wonder if you've ever had a serious conversation full stop) knows exactly how they think.

"Wolfe Tone, Robert Emmet and Charles Stuart Parnell were all Protestant."

And I imagine they'd all be disgusted with the hatred spewed above. So much for cherishing all the children of the nation.

Interesting page, i am currently trying to have a reasonable debate and trying to understand the Nationalist /republican view and have been posting on the eire nua republican band guest book, It all started fine, until I mentioned some historical facts, now I am abused and some of my postings are deleted, these postings are not abusive, but they seem to be detrimental to their cause so they delete them

As an Englishman with roots in Eire who lives on the North Coast of Ulster and also a Catholic ex soldier in the British Army I am saddened by the fact that both sides of the religious community cannot understand how to live together, what a wonderful country this would be if that happened