"That fear may not be justified in the present day, but it certainly was at the time (between 1911 and 1926, the area that would be the Irish Free State lost a third of its already small Protestant population)."

Sigh, misrepresentation. Down to mixed marriages and the teaching of the Catholic Church meaning the kids were Catholic, and people leaving following partition. In fact the Protestant population of Ireland had been falling since about the mid nineteenth century.

The state that followed was heavily dominated in social matters by the Catholic Church. That was as much a function of partition and the absence of, say, a million Protestants to counter balance it as it was of the people being particularly devout. I doubt Collins would have allowed to the same extent as De Valera, had he not been killed in a Civil War in part to do with partition.

"the Dublin-born leader of Irish Unionism, persuaded unionists to work for the exemption of 6 of the Ulster counties as a compromise."

I believe it was "Ulster says no" and not "2/3s of Ulster says no". Carson hoped to kill home rule for the whole island by using Ulster Unionism. When that failed, he just tried to keep as much out of home rule as he could, whatever the consequences.

"Similar logic is still present in the Republic’s laws, right down to its constitution. "

Have you read the Constitution? Could you tell me what it is you currently have a problem with. And bear in mind, it was written many years after partition, and would have by no means been the same if Ulster Protestants were involved in it.

"Similar logic is still present in the Republic’s laws, right down to its constitution. English was made, and remains, de jure, a second language behind Irish Gaelic. This would be fine if it wasn’t so blatantly politically motivated, as evidenced by it being given this status despite the fact that then, as now,"

Of course it is bloody well politically motivated! The political motivation to give the native tongue a boost and to try and ensure it survives for the future! What the hell has this do with Ulster Prods? Many spoke Gaelic and variants too!

"(weird suggestions about the ROI rejoining the UK? What are you smoking)?"

The answer is very simple. Yes, Ireland can be reunited. It requires 50%+1 North of the border to vote for it in a referendum, and 50%+1 South of the border to vote for it in referendum.
There is a clear majority South for it in opinion polls, and currently 40% of people North vote for pro-UI parties. Possible but not yet likely. Whether or not it happens is up to the people on the island. The end.

"Sigh, misrepresentation. Down to mixed marriages and the teaching of the Catholic Church meaning the kids were Catholic"

And of course the "special position" of said church in the constitution had nothing to do with that? And yes, there were even some who were forced out.

"That was as much a function of partition and the absence of, say, a million Protestants to counter balance it as it was of the people being particularly devout."

Conjecture. Unless you have evidence that DeV and co would have cared a jot. I wouldn't be sure, but I vaguely recall something about DeV feeling that large numbers of the heathens would pollute his Catholic gaelic state.

And yes, as an A-level politics student I had to read the Republic's Constitution. The "special position" of the Catholic church (now repealed obviously) and the language bullshit was just the start. The illegal territorial claim didn't help matters.

"and would have by no means been the same if Ulster Protestants were involved in it."

Again, conjecture. You're working on what I believe is a flawed assumption that they gave a rats ass about the Protestant and, dare I say, British population up here.

"(weird suggestions about the ROI rejoining the UK? What are you smoking)?"

Which part of "We're really delving into the realms of fantasy to even consider resurrecting the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland though." did you not understand? I'm merely pointing out that the assumption always seems to be that Ireland should be united outside the UK - in other words, on republicans' terms, and that their unwillingness to even contemplate a return to the fold is as much to blame for partition as anything else.

"And of course the "special position" of said church in the constitution had nothing to do with that? And yes, there were even some who were forced out."

What Constitution was in place during the period you specify - "between 1911 and 1926"? Was it it the 1937 one? Oh, wait.
People forced out was minor in comparison the other factors. And I repeat, it was a long term trend that is only now reversing.

"Conjecture. Unless you have evidence that DeV and co would have cared a jot."

Of course it was conjecture, I'm engaging in what if. But it is conjecture based in the fact you would have made up something like 25% of the vote in the PR system. That and as demonstrated about a million times, you're stubborn bastards, like I think the economic issues would have been a greater barrier than the religious - the North really needed access to the Empire for it's industrial base.

"And yes, as an A-level politics student I had to read the Republic's Constitution. The "special position" of the Catholic church (now repealed obviously) and the language bullshit was just the start. The illegal territorial claim didn't help matters."

" The State recognises the special position of the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church as the guardian of the Faith professed by the great majority of the citizens.
The State also recognises the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, the Methodist Church in Ireland, the Religious Society of Friends in Ireland, as well as the Jewish Congregations and the other religious denominations existing in Ireland at the date of the coming into operation of this Constitution."

So - references quite a wide variety of faiths there, and the Catholic Church only in terms of numbers. Clumsy, but frightening? C'mon! And there is 0% chance it would have made it in with Northern Protestant representatives. That isn't even speculation, just politics. There may have been a co-equal article.

Again what is wrong with the Irish language? It is a shared heritage and was even more so in 1922 or 1937 - no troubles, no every word a bullet in the struggle stuff or anything like that.

The territorial claim and it's legality is something we will just have to disagree on I think . But I asked you about the current Irish Constitution. They are all gone now and it likely a unified Ireland would have a new Constitution anyway.

"Again, conjecture. You're working on what I believe is a flawed assumption that they gave a rats ass about the Protestant and, dare I say, British population up here."

They wouldn't have had a choice. In our little what if game, you could have threatened to walk out or cause serious trouble over things you found intolerable. There might not have been a civil war, or at least a much less serious one, so FF might not have been the force they were, Collins might have been still alive and you would have been an important voting block in a PR system.

Part of the problem is that Nationalism didn't - and doesn't - have much comprehension of Unionism. I wonder if we had leaders that did at the time, and said exactly the right things if the island would be united in some sense.

"I'm merely pointing out that the assumption always seems to be that Ireland should be united outside the UK - in other words, on republicans' terms, and that their unwillingness to even contemplate a return to the fold is as much to blame for partition as anything else."

Because once you have independence, no one seems terribly keen to ever give it up. I can see an argument for a loose federation of equal independent states. The EU fills that role now though.

Ireland is divided because unlike Scotland, England, Wales and Ulster, the 26 rebel counties of Sothern Ireland sadly currently do not want to be part of the UK. They have this nasty seperatist mentality and until they get over themselves Ireland will always be divided, because Ulster will always be British. I'd like to see the Republic rejoin the UK where it belongs. No part of the British Isles should not be in union with the rest it makes no sense at all. Ulster should not leave the UK to achieve a United Ireland, that would just mean further division between the peoples of the British Isles not less. No, the Republic caused the division by breaking away from the rest of the country and the Republic should end the division by its return.

Is Chris that dumb or does he just like spewing shit? Scotland do not want to be part of the UK. England do not want to be part of the UK. The Republic do not want to be part of the UK. The western part of both Northern Ireland and Wales don't want to be in the UK. Only Eastern Wales and Northern Ireland east of the Bann actually want to retain the UK. The Republic will not rejoin the UK. The Irish people in the North don't want to be in the UK. Ireland has fought against British influence for 800 years. It isn't about to end just cause British people in Ireland and Wales don't like it.

Read the signs, the present form of the UK s over, with Scotland going to eventually get more powers, england setting up their own government, and remember that how many counties in N.Ireland would vote to join the south. When N.Ireland was created Tyrone and Fermanagh should not have went to teh north,, that is a fact as well as large parts of other counties. N.Ireland should be a much smaller place. On the sibject of Ireland being divided.

I think that Ireland is less divided than people seem to think. We have an all Ireland rugby team and cricket, The ruby has some issues to sort out which will be. Paisley now goes to the south and meets with Bertie instead ignoring Ireland is now working on an all ireland economic basis. Southern Ireland has given money to the north. The idea that were are divided and seperate is wrong. Whatever you beliefs are Ireland north and south have many things in common, with one being that we all call ourselves Irish(Northern Irish or Irish). As we work together eventually in the future all the wrongs and mistakes will be sorted out. The Irish fear of the unionist will go and the same will be said for unionists fear of the Irish man. Also southern Irish people do not hate British people, many time the south and the UK have worked together well but the idea that they will rejoin the UK is stupid.

If you asked people in Northern Ireland if they consider themselves Irish they would all agree whether that be Northern Irish or Irish.

The UK in its present form is dead, If the Uk is not changed soon or reorganised then it could spell the end of the unon, IS that a bad thing who knows. The dea that being seperate fromn the UK spells disaster is clearly wrong. If Scotland became independent which they will not do in realityin the near future, they would not stop co-operating and trading with england. Whether you are a protestant N.Irishman or a protestant ulsterman or a catholic irishman you are still born in the Island of Ireland. Ireland is advertised as a whole on the tv. There is an all Ireland tourist board. N.Ireland has more in common with the south than the UK. However Ireland will always have links and a relationship with Britain that is obvious, look at Canada and Australia, they proud of their independence but also like to remember where they came from. This is why Britain has a commonwealth.

Well, would you consider a unified ireland rejoining the commonwealth?

not too sure. In some respects it would be good and in others bad.

It would have to go to a vote, in a new united ireland maybe joining the commonweath would be a good idea so as unionists could still feel happy but at th same time enjoying full control over the country such as tax and interest rates. In a new united ireland unionists view would have to be taken into account.

In N.Ireland how may unoinsts would want the assembly to get more powers, and if so what would be the point of westminster.

I beleve that if a united ireland came about, which is a long way off it would have to recognise the protestant unionist people as well, so the anthem would have to change, also maybe a ulster local government as well, would joining the commonwealth be a small price to pay who knows. It would be hard to know what the opinion of the ROI is

Maybe if the Republic rejoined the commonwealth it could be used as a method of showing Unionists on the island that Eire isn't so hostile with regards to all things 'British' - a very small price to pay for reunification in my view. But if you asked the people of the Republic at this moment I believe you would get the old Paisley response(ironic perhaps?)

Agree with the creation of a local government for Ulster, because everyone knows, we're a wee bit special here up North... in many ways

Nothing "dumb" about Chris's assertion at all Seamus. Neounionism may be (for now ?) an unfashionable notion. But lot of ideas pretty much taken for granted nowadays (such as for example the notion that some or all of Ireland should be seperate from the UK) were at one time not so long ago considered pretty eccentric.

Its hardly unusual either for previously stable countries over a very short period of time to break up or unify (sometimes willingly) with neighbouring states or shift their borders.

Just because an idea happens to be unpopular doesnt mean its wrong.

And what evidence do you have to support the assertion that Scotland no longer wants to be part of the UK

The fact that Scottish Nationalists control the government in Scotland sort of indicate that it starting to look like Scotland wants independence.

Seamus that's a rather significant jump to make. I'll grant you the "mood" in the media seems to be going that way, but between the fact that they're a minority administration (government my arse) and there are other reasons for voting SNP, I don't think you can jump straight to "Scotland do not want to be part of the UK."

Sure its a bit of a jump but not as much as the notion that 57 odd million people are being unwillingly held in the Union by a couple of million in the eastern enclaves of NI and Wales.

Is Seamus that deluded or is he just being an obnoxious TROLL? There is no majority support to leave the union in either Scotland, England, Wales or Ulster. Western Ulster and western Wales don't want to be in the UK you say? Too bad for them then, as they can't break away from the UK anymore than my home town can.

Now just because the Scottish have elected a party that openly advocates the further destruction of our nation's territorial integrity does not mean the loyal people of Scotland share the same heinous goal. There is more than one reason to vote for any particular party and the Scots voting for the SNP is a protest vote aimed towards the two main national parties if anything. We know from regular opinion polls that the Scots consistently and resoundingly reject the SNP's fantasy of an independent Scotland.

The fact of the matter is that within the British Isles the Republic of Ireland is the odd one out. It is not in the UK or in union with the UK like all the other countries and territories that make up the British Isles. And while it remains out Ireland and the British Isles will continue to remain dividied, it is as simple as that! Even worse, it doesn't even have the Queen as head of state, even though this was one of the conditions that was agreed to allow it to break away from the rest of the nation.

It is a terrible shame that Ireland left the union and this national shame and frankly disgraceful situation that is still dragging on to this day, over 85 years later I might add, will not be abated until they return. It is the sensible thing for them to do and it is the right thing for them to do and the sooner the better. They will be welcomed back with open arms like the prodigal son.

Seamus says that the Irish people in the "North" do not want to be in the UK, well if that's the case why don't they go back to their own country? No one is forcing them to stay, this is BRITAIN and you can LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT! If they are so desperate to live in the Irish Republic then GO! The same applies to all those Irish on the mainland. Clearly the Irish DO want to live in the UK, seeing as there is so many of them here!

The UK has never been a more friendly environment for the Irish and the Irish along with the rest of the British people, have never got on better. I welcome Irish migration throughout the UK, because once the Irish see there is nothing to fear from living in the UK then it helps end this irrational belief that the 26 counties would somehow be oppressed or worse off by rejoining the Union.

It doesn't matter how many counties would vote to rejoin the "South" because Northern Ireland is a complete unit and it can't be divided, just as the United Kingdom cannot be divided and the previous incarnation of it SHOULDN'T have been divided! Northern Ireland should be a much larger place.

Northern Ireland should at least include Donegal. Is Donegal not part of northern Ireland? I have a map here now and it sure looks like that to me! Does Donegal not have a Unionist political party and Unionist parades? Donegal is Northern Ireland's natural hinterland and should have remained within it, especially so when you consider that Northern Ireland would STILL comfortably have a Unionist majority to this day if it had done so.

It is more than correct that Tyrone and Fermanagh remained within the United Kingdom. When a country is faced with losing part of its territory, like the United Kingom sadly was facts to regional nationalism/seperatism being allowed to run amok on the island of Ireland, then it is only natural that it is going to want to retain as much of its original territory as possible. There was certainly no need either to give the Irish Free State, something that should never have been allowed to be born in the first place, an inch more of territory than absolutely necessary.

I am not opposed to "all Ireland" institutions where these are sensible and just, such as sport and tourism. Don't forget, that when Ireland does this it is becoming closer entwined with the UK, seeing as Northern Ireland is part of the UK. In the same way, as there is north-south cooperation, there should also be east-west as well, where it is in our shared interests to do.

We have seen this begin to be reestablished with the creation of such institutions as the British Isles council for example, which brings together the local leaders from all the nations and territories of the British Isles for the first time in a political context. Hopefully this institution can be a springboard for further and closer integration within the British Isles as the council evolves.

So it's true that we are not completely divided and seperate, but then we never were. We have far more in common than we have in differences. That applies to both the two parts of the island of Ireland and the two sovereign states within the islands. We are one nation, the British, temporary divided into two.

People in Ulster may call themselves Irish but that doesn't neccesarily mean that they don't consider themselves also to be British, and it's not as if the two are incompatiable. Just as I am English and British someone in Ulster can be Irish and British and there's no reason why in the future that shouldn't apply to the whole island. There are also many people in Ulster who define themselves solely as British just as those rebels in the renegade 26 counties consider themselves soley Irish.

In reality however, Irish has always been a subset of British, just like English is a subset of British and together the Irish, English, Scottish and Welsh (amongst other smaller groups) made up the British people and nation. If there can be reconciliation between the Irish nationalists in Southern Ireland and the Ulster Unionists within a province of the United Kingdom, then so can there be between the Republic and the UK as a whole.

Relations like I already mentioned between the Southern Irish and the rest of the British people have never been closer and they will continue to improve, pathing the way for the Republics eventual and inevitable reunification with the Fatherland.

The Irish REALLY ARE British! British has always ment the British Isles, which Ireland has always been considered an integral part, and British has had this geographical definition first and foremost, long before even England and Scotland were joined together in political union.

Belfastman asks how many Unionists in Northern Ireland would want the assembly to get more powers, and if so what would be the point of Westminster? I would hazard to guess that the answer to that question would be very few, if any at all. Let's not forget that many Unionists saw little point in the assembly being set up in the first place! They pointed out, that Ulster is only about the size of North Yorkshire and it's hard to justify the exstravagence of an assembly for such a small area. Even if the assembly in Ulster was granted further power well so what? If Westminster became irrelevant and I don't see how, wouldn't Dublin not be even more irrelevant than it already is to the province? And as for power, let's not forger that Westminster has not given up ANY power at all. It has merely devolved it.

So I say an enthusiastic YES to Irish unity but not at the expense of British unity, which includes the WHOLE of Ireland not just are mere 6 counties of it! Comrades, it is exciting times that we find ourselves in as British patriots and loyalists, for the future of our nation looks bright. The reunification with our lost (but not forgotten!) 26 Irish counties is at long last within our reach and the day that the British people are finally reunited once again will go down in history as the proudest day in all our Nation's glorious history. This time we will be sincere when we say that the Union really will be perpetualy lasting!