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Why Ireland is Divided
by beano 
on 04 Mar 2007 at 15:58. Categories: United Kingdom, Northern Ireland, Irish Republic, Beano's Rants 
Yesterday an American visitor going under the pseudonym Eireann posted a comment on another thread asking a few questions about Ireland. Specifically, he/she was having trouble with the concept of why Ireland was divided and why we couldn't all just unite and live happily ever after. It was difficult to know where to start, and definitely beyond the remit of a follow-up comment on a more-or-less unrelated thread, nevertheless I set about formulating some sort of response.
It's not easy to try and explain the logic behind Northern Ireland (never mind the centuries preceding its existence) and unionism to outsiders, most of whom are familiar with the lovey-dovey dreams of republicans to reclaim their "fourth green field" from the "saxon oppressor", but who hear little of the alternative point of view. I'm always up for a challenge though.
Follow up:
The question was: "All of Ireland is a beautiful country - no doubt - can't it be united?"
Thanks, I suppose it is a beautiful country (though actually it's two beautiful countries). Nobody ever wanted to divide Ireland. The problem was that while the territory was united pre-1920, the people were already divided. In 1912, while 'nationalists' in south were seeking Home Rule (devolution) from Westminster, half a million 'unionists' signed a covenant pledging to fight such a move (such was the strength of opposition to Home Rule; it's safe to assume opposition to complete independence would have been even stronger). One of the most important reasons for this was that Ulster, and particularly Belfast, had benefited more from the industrial revolution than had the rest of Ireland. The shipbuilding industry was booming in Belfast and this necessitated good relations and close ties with the rest of Britain and the Empire. At that time, it was also feared that being ruled from Dublin would be harmful to civil and religious liberties. That fear may not be justified in the present day, but it certainly was at the time (between 1911 and 1926, the area that would be the Irish Free State lost a third of its already small Protestant population).
It's unlikely either nationalists or unionists set out to divide Ireland. It was only when the battle against Home Rule already seemed lost, following the Easter Rising and (probably more significantly) the passing of the Third Home Rule Bill, that Lord Carson, the Dublin-born leader of Irish Unionism, persuaded unionists to work for the exemption of 6 of the Ulster counties as a compromise. The logic of this was:
- the majority of Protestants and unionists were concentrated in this region; and
- the majority of people in this region were Protestants and unionists.
In the 1921 Anglo-Irish Treaty between Britain and the nationalist rebels that created the Irish Free State, both sides accepted that Northern Ireland's Parliament could opt-out of the Free State. However, when it did, the leaders of the Free State spent the next year engaged in a violent offensive against the new state of Northern Ireland. The southern state also maintained a territorial claim over Northern Ireland for the next 75 years which did nothing to aid good relations.
So there's a very brief history, but what about the present day? As I said above, it doesn't seem as obvious now as then that rule from Dublin would be "harmful to religious and civil liberties" so why do unionists still wish to remain separate from the rest of Ireland? We don't, at least not by design. The fundamental goal of unionism is to remain in the United Kingdom. The fact that this separates us from the rest of the island of Ireland is an unfortunate consequence.
Even though partition was nobody's primary goal, I fear the answer to your question regarding unification is no. There are numerous advantages to being part of the United Kingdom including a slightly tongue-in-cheek list I have produced previously, but a major factor in the desire to remain in the UK is that (contrary to the slogan's unsuccessful use in an election campaign) we are "simply British."
The reason this causes problems is that southern state is in many ways defined by its opposition to Britain. As an example, the Easter Rising, a rebellion that was unpopular even among the Irish at the time, is celebrated annually and has become something of an Irish creation myth. The Gaelic Athletic Association, a quasi-political organisation which runs probably the most popular sports in the country, was founded specifically to promote the idea that Gaelic was good and British was bad. Similar logic is still present in the Republic's laws, right down to its constitution. English was made, and remains, de jure, a second language behind Irish Gaelic. This would be fine if it wasn't so blatantly politically motivated, as evidenced by it being given this status despite the fact that then, as now, English is far more widely spoken than the "first language." Imagine French being made the first language of the whole of Canada! It's ridiculous. English is made explicitly inferior because it is deemed "foreign."
Note that this is not an exhaustive list of problems we would have with the Republic (how long have you got?), just a starting point.
Anyway, back to the question. It just seems as if there is just too much water under the bridge. Even if, by some miracle, the Republic, prosperous as they now are, decided they would like to rejoin the UK, I think it would take many years and even more reforms before there was enough trust there to combine the two jurisdictions into one administrative region. We're really delving into the realms of fantasy to even consider resurrecting the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland though.
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28 comments
Comment from: kensei [Visitor]
"That fear may not be justified in the present day, but it certainly was at the time (between 1911 and 1926, the area that would be the Irish Free State lost a third of its already small Protestant population)."
Sigh, misrepresentation. Down to mixed marriages and the teaching of the Catholic Church meaning the kids were Catholic, and people leaving following partition. In fact the Protestant population of Ireland had been falling since about the mid nineteenth century.
The state that followed was heavily dominated in social matters by the Catholic Church. That was as much a function of partition and the absence of, say, a million Protestants to counter balance it as it was of the people being particularly devout. I doubt Collins would have allowed to the same extent as De Valera, had he not been killed in a Civil War in part to do with partition.
"the Dublin-born leader of Irish Unionism, persuaded unionists to work for the exemption of 6 of the Ulster counties as a compromise."
I believe it was "Ulster says no" and not "2/3s of Ulster says no". Carson hoped to kill home rule for the whole island by using Ulster Unionism. When that failed, he just tried to keep as much out of home rule as he could, whatever the consequences.
"Similar logic is still present in the Republic’s laws, right down to its constitution. "
Have you read the Constitution? Could you tell me what it is you currently have a problem with. And bear in mind, it was written many years after partition, and would have by no means been the same if Ulster Protestants were involved in it.
"Similar logic is still present in the Republic’s laws, right down to its constitution. English was made, and remains, de jure, a second language behind Irish Gaelic. This would be fine if it wasn’t so blatantly politically motivated, as evidenced by it being given this status despite the fact that then, as now,"
Of course it is bloody well politically motivated! The political motivation to give the native tongue a boost and to try and ensure it survives for the future! What the hell has this do with Ulster Prods? Many spoke Gaelic and variants too!
"(weird suggestions about the ROI rejoining the UK? What are you smoking)?"
The answer is very simple. Yes, Ireland can be reunited. It requires 50%+1 North of the border to vote for it in a referendum, and 50%+1 South of the border to vote for it in referendum.
There is a clear majority South for it in opinion polls, and currently 40% of people North vote for pro-UI parties. Possible but not yet likely. Whether or not it happens is up to the people on the island. The end.
Sigh, misrepresentation. Down to mixed marriages and the teaching of the Catholic Church meaning the kids were Catholic, and people leaving following partition. In fact the Protestant population of Ireland had been falling since about the mid nineteenth century.
The state that followed was heavily dominated in social matters by the Catholic Church. That was as much a function of partition and the absence of, say, a million Protestants to counter balance it as it was of the people being particularly devout. I doubt Collins would have allowed to the same extent as De Valera, had he not been killed in a Civil War in part to do with partition.
"the Dublin-born leader of Irish Unionism, persuaded unionists to work for the exemption of 6 of the Ulster counties as a compromise."
I believe it was "Ulster says no" and not "2/3s of Ulster says no". Carson hoped to kill home rule for the whole island by using Ulster Unionism. When that failed, he just tried to keep as much out of home rule as he could, whatever the consequences.
"Similar logic is still present in the Republic’s laws, right down to its constitution. "
Have you read the Constitution? Could you tell me what it is you currently have a problem with. And bear in mind, it was written many years after partition, and would have by no means been the same if Ulster Protestants were involved in it.
"Similar logic is still present in the Republic’s laws, right down to its constitution. English was made, and remains, de jure, a second language behind Irish Gaelic. This would be fine if it wasn’t so blatantly politically motivated, as evidenced by it being given this status despite the fact that then, as now,"
Of course it is bloody well politically motivated! The political motivation to give the native tongue a boost and to try and ensure it survives for the future! What the hell has this do with Ulster Prods? Many spoke Gaelic and variants too!
"(weird suggestions about the ROI rejoining the UK? What are you smoking)?"
The answer is very simple. Yes, Ireland can be reunited. It requires 50%+1 North of the border to vote for it in a referendum, and 50%+1 South of the border to vote for it in referendum.
There is a clear majority South for it in opinion polls, and currently 40% of people North vote for pro-UI parties. Possible but not yet likely. Whether or not it happens is up to the people on the island. The end.
04 Mar 2007 @ 18:00
"Sigh, misrepresentation. Down to mixed marriages and the teaching of the Catholic Church meaning the kids were Catholic"
And of course the "special position" of said church in the constitution had nothing to do with that? And yes, there were even some who were forced out.
"That was as much a function of partition and the absence of, say, a million Protestants to counter balance it as it was of the people being particularly devout."
Conjecture. Unless you have evidence that DeV and co would have cared a jot. I wouldn't be sure, but I vaguely recall something about DeV feeling that large numbers of the heathens would pollute his Catholic gaelic state.
And yes, as an A-level politics student I had to read the Republic's Constitution. The "special position" of the Catholic church (now repealed obviously) and the language bullshit was just the start. The illegal territorial claim didn't help matters.
"and would have by no means been the same if Ulster Protestants were involved in it."
Again, conjecture. You're working on what I believe is a flawed assumption that they gave a rats ass about the Protestant and, dare I say, British population up here.
"(weird suggestions about the ROI rejoining the UK? What are you smoking)?"
Which part of "We're really delving into the realms of fantasy to even consider resurrecting the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland though." did you not understand? I'm merely pointing out that the assumption always seems to be that Ireland should be united outside the UK - in other words, on republicans' terms, and that their unwillingness to even contemplate a return to the fold is as much to blame for partition as anything else.
And of course the "special position" of said church in the constitution had nothing to do with that? And yes, there were even some who were forced out.
"That was as much a function of partition and the absence of, say, a million Protestants to counter balance it as it was of the people being particularly devout."
Conjecture. Unless you have evidence that DeV and co would have cared a jot. I wouldn't be sure, but I vaguely recall something about DeV feeling that large numbers of the heathens would pollute his Catholic gaelic state.
And yes, as an A-level politics student I had to read the Republic's Constitution. The "special position" of the Catholic church (now repealed obviously) and the language bullshit was just the start. The illegal territorial claim didn't help matters.
"and would have by no means been the same if Ulster Protestants were involved in it."
Again, conjecture. You're working on what I believe is a flawed assumption that they gave a rats ass about the Protestant and, dare I say, British population up here.
"(weird suggestions about the ROI rejoining the UK? What are you smoking)?"
Which part of "We're really delving into the realms of fantasy to even consider resurrecting the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland though." did you not understand? I'm merely pointing out that the assumption always seems to be that Ireland should be united outside the UK - in other words, on republicans' terms, and that their unwillingness to even contemplate a return to the fold is as much to blame for partition as anything else.
04 Mar 2007 @ 19:29
Comment from: kensei [Visitor]
"And of course the "special position" of said church in the constitution had nothing to do with that? And yes, there were even some who were forced out."
What Constitution was in place during the period you specify - "between 1911 and 1926"? Was it it the 1937 one? Oh, wait.
People forced out was minor in comparison the other factors. And I repeat, it was a long term trend that is only now reversing.
"Conjecture. Unless you have evidence that DeV and co would have cared a jot."
Of course it was conjecture, I'm engaging in what if. But it is conjecture based in the fact you would have made up something like 25% of the vote in the PR system. That and as demonstrated about a million times, you're stubborn bastards, like
I think the economic issues would have been a greater barrier than the religious - the North really needed access to the Empire for it's industrial base.
"And yes, as an A-level politics student I had to read the Republic's Constitution. The "special position" of the Catholic church (now repealed obviously) and the language bullshit was just the start. The illegal territorial claim didn't help matters."
" The State recognises the special position of the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church as the guardian of the Faith professed by the great majority of the citizens.
The State also recognises the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, the Methodist Church in Ireland, the Religious Society of Friends in Ireland, as well as the Jewish Congregations and the other religious denominations existing in Ireland at the date of the coming into operation of this Constitution."
So - references quite a wide variety of faiths there, and the Catholic Church only in terms of numbers. Clumsy, but frightening? C'mon! And there is 0% chance it would have made it in with Northern Protestant representatives. That isn't even speculation, just politics. There may have been a co-equal article.
Again what is wrong with the Irish language? It is a shared heritage and was even more so in 1922 or 1937 - no troubles, no every word a bullet in the struggle stuff or anything like that.
The territorial claim and it's legality is something we will just have to disagree on I think
. But I asked you about the current Irish Constitution. They are all gone now and it likely a unified Ireland would have a new Constitution anyway.
"Again, conjecture. You're working on what I believe is a flawed assumption that they gave a rats ass about the Protestant and, dare I say, British population up here."
They wouldn't have had a choice. In our little what if game, you could have threatened to walk out or cause serious trouble over things you found intolerable. There might not have been a civil war, or at least a much less serious one, so FF might not have been the force they were, Collins might have been still alive and you would have been an important voting block in a PR system.
Part of the problem is that Nationalism didn't - and doesn't - have much comprehension of Unionism. I wonder if we had leaders that did at the time, and said exactly the right things if the island would be united in some sense.
"I'm merely pointing out that the assumption always seems to be that Ireland should be united outside the UK - in other words, on republicans' terms, and that their unwillingness to even contemplate a return to the fold is as much to blame for partition as anything else."
Because once you have independence, no one seems terribly keen to ever give it up. I can see an argument for a loose federation of equal independent states. The EU fills that role now though.
What Constitution was in place during the period you specify - "between 1911 and 1926"? Was it it the 1937 one? Oh, wait.
People forced out was minor in comparison the other factors. And I repeat, it was a long term trend that is only now reversing.
"Conjecture. Unless you have evidence that DeV and co would have cared a jot."
Of course it was conjecture, I'm engaging in what if. But it is conjecture based in the fact you would have made up something like 25% of the vote in the PR system. That and as demonstrated about a million times, you're stubborn bastards, like
I think the economic issues would have been a greater barrier than the religious - the North really needed access to the Empire for it's industrial base."And yes, as an A-level politics student I had to read the Republic's Constitution. The "special position" of the Catholic church (now repealed obviously) and the language bullshit was just the start. The illegal territorial claim didn't help matters."
" The State recognises the special position of the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church as the guardian of the Faith professed by the great majority of the citizens.
The State also recognises the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, the Methodist Church in Ireland, the Religious Society of Friends in Ireland, as well as the Jewish Congregations and the other religious denominations existing in Ireland at the date of the coming into operation of this Constitution."
So - references quite a wide variety of faiths there, and the Catholic Church only in terms of numbers. Clumsy, but frightening? C'mon! And there is 0% chance it would have made it in with Northern Protestant representatives. That isn't even speculation, just politics. There may have been a co-equal article.
Again what is wrong with the Irish language? It is a shared heritage and was even more so in 1922 or 1937 - no troubles, no every word a bullet in the struggle stuff or anything like that.
The territorial claim and it's legality is something we will just have to disagree on I think
. But I asked you about the current Irish Constitution. They are all gone now and it likely a unified Ireland would have a new Constitution anyway."Again, conjecture. You're working on what I believe is a flawed assumption that they gave a rats ass about the Protestant and, dare I say, British population up here."
They wouldn't have had a choice. In our little what if game, you could have threatened to walk out or cause serious trouble over things you found intolerable. There might not have been a civil war, or at least a much less serious one, so FF might not have been the force they were, Collins might have been still alive and you would have been an important voting block in a PR system.
Part of the problem is that Nationalism didn't - and doesn't - have much comprehension of Unionism. I wonder if we had leaders that did at the time, and said exactly the right things if the island would be united in some sense.
"I'm merely pointing out that the assumption always seems to be that Ireland should be united outside the UK - in other words, on republicans' terms, and that their unwillingness to even contemplate a return to the fold is as much to blame for partition as anything else."
Because once you have independence, no one seems terribly keen to ever give it up. I can see an argument for a loose federation of equal independent states. The EU fills that role now though.
04 Mar 2007 @ 21:08
Ireland is divided because unlike Scotland, England, Wales and Ulster, the 26 rebel counties of Sothern Ireland sadly currently do not want to be part of the UK. They have this nasty seperatist mentality and until they get over themselves Ireland will always be divided, because Ulster will always be British. I'd like to see the Republic rejoin the UK where it belongs. No part of the British Isles should not be in union with the rest it makes no sense at all. Ulster should not leave the UK to achieve a United Ireland, that would just mean further division between the peoples of the British Isles not less. No, the Republic caused the division by breaking away from the rest of the country and the Republic should end the division by its return.
23 Nov 2007 @ 17:21
Comment from: Seamus [Visitor]
Is Chris that dumb or does he just like spewing shit? Scotland do not want to be part of the UK. England do not want to be part of the UK. The Republic do not want to be part of the UK. The western part of both Northern Ireland and Wales don't want to be in the UK. Only Eastern Wales and Northern Ireland east of the Bann actually want to retain the UK. The Republic will not rejoin the UK. The Irish people in the North don't want to be in the UK. Ireland has fought against British influence for 800 years. It isn't about to end just cause British people in Ireland and Wales don't like it.
24 Nov 2007 @ 14:11
Comment from: belfastman [Visitor]
Read the signs, the present form of the UK s over, with Scotland going to eventually get more powers, england setting up their own government, and remember that how many counties in N.Ireland would vote to join the south. When N.Ireland was created Tyrone and Fermanagh should not have went to teh north,, that is a fact as well as large parts of other counties. N.Ireland should be a much smaller place. On the sibject of Ireland being divided.
I think that Ireland is less divided than people seem to think. We have an all Ireland rugby team and cricket, The ruby has some issues to sort out which will be. Paisley now goes to the south and meets with Bertie instead ignoring Ireland is now working on an all ireland economic basis. Southern Ireland has given money to the north. The idea that were are divided and seperate is wrong. Whatever you beliefs are Ireland north and south have many things in common, with one being that we all call ourselves Irish(Northern Irish or Irish). As we work together eventually in the future all the wrongs and mistakes will be sorted out. The Irish fear of the unionist will go and the same will be said for unionists fear of the Irish man. Also southern Irish people do not hate British people, many time the south and the UK have worked together well but the idea that they will rejoin the UK is stupid.
If you asked people in Northern Ireland if they consider themselves Irish they would all agree whether that be Northern Irish or Irish.
The UK in its present form is dead, If the Uk is not changed soon or reorganised then it could spell the end of the unon, IS that a bad thing who knows. The dea that being seperate fromn the UK spells disaster is clearly wrong. If Scotland became independent which they will not do in realityin the near future, they would not stop co-operating and trading with england. Whether you are a protestant N.Irishman or a protestant ulsterman or a catholic irishman you are still born in the Island of Ireland. Ireland is advertised as a whole on the tv. There is an all Ireland tourist board. N.Ireland has more in common with the south than the UK. However Ireland will always have links and a relationship with Britain that is obvious, look at Canada and Australia, they proud of their independence but also like to remember where they came from. This is why Britain has a commonwealth.
I think that Ireland is less divided than people seem to think. We have an all Ireland rugby team and cricket, The ruby has some issues to sort out which will be. Paisley now goes to the south and meets with Bertie instead ignoring Ireland is now working on an all ireland economic basis. Southern Ireland has given money to the north. The idea that were are divided and seperate is wrong. Whatever you beliefs are Ireland north and south have many things in common, with one being that we all call ourselves Irish(Northern Irish or Irish). As we work together eventually in the future all the wrongs and mistakes will be sorted out. The Irish fear of the unionist will go and the same will be said for unionists fear of the Irish man. Also southern Irish people do not hate British people, many time the south and the UK have worked together well but the idea that they will rejoin the UK is stupid.
If you asked people in Northern Ireland if they consider themselves Irish they would all agree whether that be Northern Irish or Irish.
The UK in its present form is dead, If the Uk is not changed soon or reorganised then it could spell the end of the unon, IS that a bad thing who knows. The dea that being seperate fromn the UK spells disaster is clearly wrong. If Scotland became independent which they will not do in realityin the near future, they would not stop co-operating and trading with england. Whether you are a protestant N.Irishman or a protestant ulsterman or a catholic irishman you are still born in the Island of Ireland. Ireland is advertised as a whole on the tv. There is an all Ireland tourist board. N.Ireland has more in common with the south than the UK. However Ireland will always have links and a relationship with Britain that is obvious, look at Canada and Australia, they proud of their independence but also like to remember where they came from. This is why Britain has a commonwealth.
24 Nov 2007 @ 14:37
Well, would you consider a unified ireland rejoining the commonwealth?
25 Nov 2007 @ 17:55
Comment from: belfastman [Visitor]
not too sure. In some respects it would be good and in others bad.
It would have to go to a vote, in a new united ireland maybe joining the commonweath would be a good idea so as unionists could still feel happy but at th same time enjoying full control over the country such as tax and interest rates. In a new united ireland unionists view would have to be taken into account.
In N.Ireland how may unoinsts would want the assembly to get more powers, and if so what would be the point of westminster.
I beleve that if a united ireland came about, which is a long way off it would have to recognise the protestant unionist people as well, so the anthem would have to change, also maybe a ulster local government as well, would joining the commonwealth be a small price to pay who knows. It would be hard to know what the opinion of the ROI is
It would have to go to a vote, in a new united ireland maybe joining the commonweath would be a good idea so as unionists could still feel happy but at th same time enjoying full control over the country such as tax and interest rates. In a new united ireland unionists view would have to be taken into account.
In N.Ireland how may unoinsts would want the assembly to get more powers, and if so what would be the point of westminster.
I beleve that if a united ireland came about, which is a long way off it would have to recognise the protestant unionist people as well, so the anthem would have to change, also maybe a ulster local government as well, would joining the commonwealth be a small price to pay who knows. It would be hard to know what the opinion of the ROI is
25 Nov 2007 @ 21:02
Maybe if the Republic rejoined the commonwealth it could be used as a method of showing Unionists on the island that Eire isn't so hostile with regards to all things 'British' - a very small price to pay for reunification in my view. But if you asked the people of the Republic at this moment I believe you would get the old Paisley response(ironic perhaps?)
Agree with the creation of a local government for Ulster, because everyone knows, we're a wee bit special here up North... in many ways
Agree with the creation of a local government for Ulster, because everyone knows, we're a wee bit special here up North... in many ways
25 Nov 2007 @ 22:11
Comment from: Mike [Visitor]
Nothing "dumb" about Chris's assertion at all Seamus. Neounionism may be (for now ?) an unfashionable notion. But lot of ideas pretty much taken for granted nowadays (such as for example the notion that some or all of Ireland should be seperate from the UK) were at one time not so long ago considered pretty eccentric.
Its hardly unusual either for previously stable countries over a very short period of time to break up or unify (sometimes willingly) with neighbouring states or shift their borders.
Just because an idea happens to be unpopular doesnt mean its wrong.
And what evidence do you have to support the assertion that Scotland no longer wants to be part of the UK
Its hardly unusual either for previously stable countries over a very short period of time to break up or unify (sometimes willingly) with neighbouring states or shift their borders.
Just because an idea happens to be unpopular doesnt mean its wrong.
And what evidence do you have to support the assertion that Scotland no longer wants to be part of the UK
09 Mar 2008 @ 21:13
The fact that Scottish Nationalists control the government in Scotland sort of indicate that it starting to look like Scotland wants independence.
10 Mar 2008 @ 16:45
Seamus that's a rather significant jump to make. I'll grant you the "mood" in the media seems to be going that way, but between the fact that they're a minority administration (government my arse) and there are other reasons for voting SNP, I don't think you can jump straight to "Scotland do not want to be part of the UK."
10 Mar 2008 @ 17:54
Comment from: Mike [Visitor]
Sure its a bit of a jump but not as much as the notion that 57 odd million people are being unwillingly held in the Union by a couple of million in the eastern enclaves of NI and Wales.
10 Mar 2008 @ 19:28
Comment from: XenonII [Visitor] · http://BelieveMail.com
Is Seamus that deluded or is he just being an obnoxious TROLL? There is no majority support to leave the union in either Scotland, England, Wales or Ulster. Western Ulster and western Wales don't want to be in the UK you say? Too bad for them then, as they can't break away from the UK anymore than my home town can.
Now just because the Scottish have elected a party that openly advocates the further destruction of our nation's territorial integrity does not mean the loyal people of Scotland share the same heinous goal. There is more than one reason to vote for any particular party and the Scots voting for the SNP is a protest vote aimed towards the two main national parties if anything. We know from regular opinion polls that the Scots consistently and resoundingly reject the SNP's fantasy of an independent Scotland.
The fact of the matter is that within the British Isles the Republic of Ireland is the odd one out. It is not in the UK or in union with the UK like all the other countries and territories that make up the British Isles. And while it remains out Ireland and the British Isles will continue to remain dividied, it is as simple as that! Even worse, it doesn't even have the Queen as head of state, even though this was one of the conditions that was agreed to allow it to break away from the rest of the nation.
It is a terrible shame that Ireland left the union and this national shame and frankly disgraceful situation that is still dragging on to this day, over 85 years later I might add, will not be abated until they return. It is the sensible thing for them to do and it is the right thing for them to do and the sooner the better. They will be welcomed back with open arms like the prodigal son.
Seamus says that the Irish people in the "North" do not want to be in the UK, well if that's the case why don't they go back to their own country? No one is forcing them to stay, this is BRITAIN and you can LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT! If they are so desperate to live in the Irish Republic then GO! The same applies to all those Irish on the mainland. Clearly the Irish DO want to live in the UK, seeing as there is so many of them here!
The UK has never been a more friendly environment for the Irish and the Irish along with the rest of the British people, have never got on better. I welcome Irish migration throughout the UK, because once the Irish see there is nothing to fear from living in the UK then it helps end this irrational belief that the 26 counties would somehow be oppressed or worse off by rejoining the Union.
It doesn't matter how many counties would vote to rejoin the "South" because Northern Ireland is a complete unit and it can't be divided, just as the United Kingdom cannot be divided and the previous incarnation of it SHOULDN'T have been divided! Northern Ireland should be a much larger place.
Northern Ireland should at least include Donegal. Is Donegal not part of northern Ireland? I have a map here now and it sure looks like that to me! Does Donegal not have a Unionist political party and Unionist parades? Donegal is Northern Ireland's natural hinterland and should have remained within it, especially so when you consider that Northern Ireland would STILL comfortably have a Unionist majority to this day if it had done so.
It is more than correct that Tyrone and Fermanagh remained within the United Kingdom. When a country is faced with losing part of its territory, like the United Kingom sadly was facts to regional nationalism/seperatism being allowed to run amok on the island of Ireland, then it is only natural that it is going to want to retain as much of its original territory as possible. There was certainly no need either to give the Irish Free State, something that should never have been allowed to be born in the first place, an inch more of territory than absolutely necessary.
I am not opposed to "all Ireland" institutions where these are sensible and just, such as sport and tourism. Don't forget, that when Ireland does this it is becoming closer entwined with the UK, seeing as Northern Ireland is part of the UK. In the same way, as there is north-south cooperation, there should also be east-west as well, where it is in our shared interests to do.
We have seen this begin to be reestablished with the creation of such institutions as the British Isles council for example, which brings together the local leaders from all the nations and territories of the British Isles for the first time in a political context. Hopefully this institution can be a springboard for further and closer integration within the British Isles as the council evolves.
So it's true that we are not completely divided and seperate, but then we never were. We have far more in common than we have in differences. That applies to both the two parts of the island of Ireland and the two sovereign states within the islands. We are one nation, the British, temporary divided into two.
People in Ulster may call themselves Irish but that doesn't neccesarily mean that they don't consider themselves also to be British, and it's not as if the two are incompatiable. Just as I am English and British someone in Ulster can be Irish and British and there's no reason why in the future that shouldn't apply to the whole island. There are also many people in Ulster who define themselves solely as British just as those rebels in the renegade 26 counties consider themselves soley Irish.
In reality however, Irish has always been a subset of British, just like English is a subset of British and together the Irish, English, Scottish and Welsh (amongst other smaller groups) made up the British people and nation. If there can be reconciliation between the Irish nationalists in Southern Ireland and the Ulster Unionists within a province of the United Kingdom, then so can there be between the Republic and the UK as a whole.
Relations like I already mentioned between the Southern Irish and the rest of the British people have never been closer and they will continue to improve, pathing the way for the Republics eventual and inevitable reunification with the Fatherland.
The Irish REALLY ARE British! British has always ment the British Isles, which Ireland has always been considered an integral part, and British has had this geographical definition first and foremost, long before even England and Scotland were joined together in political union.
Belfastman asks how many Unionists in Northern Ireland would want the assembly to get more powers, and if so what would be the point of Westminster? I would hazard to guess that the answer to that question would be very few, if any at all. Let's not forget that many Unionists saw little point in the assembly being set up in the first place! They pointed out, that Ulster is only about the size of North Yorkshire and it's hard to justify the exstravagence of an assembly for such a small area. Even if the assembly in Ulster was granted further power well so what? If Westminster became irrelevant and I don't see how, wouldn't Dublin not be even more irrelevant than it already is to the province? And as for power, let's not forger that Westminster has not given up ANY power at all. It has merely devolved it.
So I say an enthusiastic YES to Irish unity but not at the expense of British unity, which includes the WHOLE of Ireland not just are mere 6 counties of it! Comrades, it is exciting times that we find ourselves in as British patriots and loyalists, for the future of our nation looks bright. The reunification with our lost (but not forgotten!) 26 Irish counties is at long last within our reach and the day that the British people are finally reunited once again will go down in history as the proudest day in all our Nation's glorious history. This time we will be sincere when we say that the Union really will be perpetualy lasting!
Now just because the Scottish have elected a party that openly advocates the further destruction of our nation's territorial integrity does not mean the loyal people of Scotland share the same heinous goal. There is more than one reason to vote for any particular party and the Scots voting for the SNP is a protest vote aimed towards the two main national parties if anything. We know from regular opinion polls that the Scots consistently and resoundingly reject the SNP's fantasy of an independent Scotland.
The fact of the matter is that within the British Isles the Republic of Ireland is the odd one out. It is not in the UK or in union with the UK like all the other countries and territories that make up the British Isles. And while it remains out Ireland and the British Isles will continue to remain dividied, it is as simple as that! Even worse, it doesn't even have the Queen as head of state, even though this was one of the conditions that was agreed to allow it to break away from the rest of the nation.
It is a terrible shame that Ireland left the union and this national shame and frankly disgraceful situation that is still dragging on to this day, over 85 years later I might add, will not be abated until they return. It is the sensible thing for them to do and it is the right thing for them to do and the sooner the better. They will be welcomed back with open arms like the prodigal son.
Seamus says that the Irish people in the "North" do not want to be in the UK, well if that's the case why don't they go back to their own country? No one is forcing them to stay, this is BRITAIN and you can LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT! If they are so desperate to live in the Irish Republic then GO! The same applies to all those Irish on the mainland. Clearly the Irish DO want to live in the UK, seeing as there is so many of them here!
The UK has never been a more friendly environment for the Irish and the Irish along with the rest of the British people, have never got on better. I welcome Irish migration throughout the UK, because once the Irish see there is nothing to fear from living in the UK then it helps end this irrational belief that the 26 counties would somehow be oppressed or worse off by rejoining the Union.
It doesn't matter how many counties would vote to rejoin the "South" because Northern Ireland is a complete unit and it can't be divided, just as the United Kingdom cannot be divided and the previous incarnation of it SHOULDN'T have been divided! Northern Ireland should be a much larger place.
Northern Ireland should at least include Donegal. Is Donegal not part of northern Ireland? I have a map here now and it sure looks like that to me! Does Donegal not have a Unionist political party and Unionist parades? Donegal is Northern Ireland's natural hinterland and should have remained within it, especially so when you consider that Northern Ireland would STILL comfortably have a Unionist majority to this day if it had done so.
It is more than correct that Tyrone and Fermanagh remained within the United Kingdom. When a country is faced with losing part of its territory, like the United Kingom sadly was facts to regional nationalism/seperatism being allowed to run amok on the island of Ireland, then it is only natural that it is going to want to retain as much of its original territory as possible. There was certainly no need either to give the Irish Free State, something that should never have been allowed to be born in the first place, an inch more of territory than absolutely necessary.
I am not opposed to "all Ireland" institutions where these are sensible and just, such as sport and tourism. Don't forget, that when Ireland does this it is becoming closer entwined with the UK, seeing as Northern Ireland is part of the UK. In the same way, as there is north-south cooperation, there should also be east-west as well, where it is in our shared interests to do.
We have seen this begin to be reestablished with the creation of such institutions as the British Isles council for example, which brings together the local leaders from all the nations and territories of the British Isles for the first time in a political context. Hopefully this institution can be a springboard for further and closer integration within the British Isles as the council evolves.
So it's true that we are not completely divided and seperate, but then we never were. We have far more in common than we have in differences. That applies to both the two parts of the island of Ireland and the two sovereign states within the islands. We are one nation, the British, temporary divided into two.
People in Ulster may call themselves Irish but that doesn't neccesarily mean that they don't consider themselves also to be British, and it's not as if the two are incompatiable. Just as I am English and British someone in Ulster can be Irish and British and there's no reason why in the future that shouldn't apply to the whole island. There are also many people in Ulster who define themselves solely as British just as those rebels in the renegade 26 counties consider themselves soley Irish.
In reality however, Irish has always been a subset of British, just like English is a subset of British and together the Irish, English, Scottish and Welsh (amongst other smaller groups) made up the British people and nation. If there can be reconciliation between the Irish nationalists in Southern Ireland and the Ulster Unionists within a province of the United Kingdom, then so can there be between the Republic and the UK as a whole.
Relations like I already mentioned between the Southern Irish and the rest of the British people have never been closer and they will continue to improve, pathing the way for the Republics eventual and inevitable reunification with the Fatherland.
The Irish REALLY ARE British! British has always ment the British Isles, which Ireland has always been considered an integral part, and British has had this geographical definition first and foremost, long before even England and Scotland were joined together in political union.
Belfastman asks how many Unionists in Northern Ireland would want the assembly to get more powers, and if so what would be the point of Westminster? I would hazard to guess that the answer to that question would be very few, if any at all. Let's not forget that many Unionists saw little point in the assembly being set up in the first place! They pointed out, that Ulster is only about the size of North Yorkshire and it's hard to justify the exstravagence of an assembly for such a small area. Even if the assembly in Ulster was granted further power well so what? If Westminster became irrelevant and I don't see how, wouldn't Dublin not be even more irrelevant than it already is to the province? And as for power, let's not forger that Westminster has not given up ANY power at all. It has merely devolved it.
So I say an enthusiastic YES to Irish unity but not at the expense of British unity, which includes the WHOLE of Ireland not just are mere 6 counties of it! Comrades, it is exciting times that we find ourselves in as British patriots and loyalists, for the future of our nation looks bright. The reunification with our lost (but not forgotten!) 26 Irish counties is at long last within our reach and the day that the British people are finally reunited once again will go down in history as the proudest day in all our Nation's glorious history. This time we will be sincere when we say that the Union really will be perpetualy lasting!
23 Jul 2008 @ 09:42
Comment from: Corrupt Éire [Visitor] · http://ireland.corrupt.org
At the two extremes I'd say nationalists were idealists and unionists cold hard pragmatists. The single biggest tragedy of modern Ireland is that these two currents are kept apart. If they weren't, we would be an awesome and inspiring force in the world (remember, the expansiveness and success of the british empire owed alot to us).
I personally define myself as a practical nationalist - we should set ourselves goals to accomplish (including the fostering and revival of distinct national -and local- culture) but we should not make it a quasi-religious obsession that blinds us to reality (and thus to our mistakes and to what steps we need to take to accomplish our goals). We should also be careful to avoid the utilitarian materialism that pragmatism can degenerate to when utility and practicality become ends in themselves.
I personally define myself as a practical nationalist - we should set ourselves goals to accomplish (including the fostering and revival of distinct national -and local- culture) but we should not make it a quasi-religious obsession that blinds us to reality (and thus to our mistakes and to what steps we need to take to accomplish our goals). We should also be careful to avoid the utilitarian materialism that pragmatism can degenerate to when utility and practicality become ends in themselves.
26 Jul 2008 @ 20:22
Comment from: Lawrence [Visitor]
I agree that the whole of Ireland will never be part of the U (thank god) but at the same time there are more Irish Brits than would admit it publicly. 13% of the population of the Republic have British citizenship which is much higher than the proportion of English/Scots/Welsh or protestants who are Irish residents. The probelm is that Irish society forbids any pro-british sentiment from its citizens. Very anti-democratic in my opinion.
31 Aug 2008 @ 19:52
Comment from: Conrad [Visitor]
I'm an Ulster Protestant from Belfast who is not afraid of a United Ireland. In fact, I welcome it. I have no time for bigoted Protestants who actually just embarrass me. Time to modernise your thinking my kinsmen!
A United Ireland makes much more sense. I feel Irish and have a right to be Irish just as much as anyone else from Dublin, Cork or Galway.
The UK is breaking up anyway and an independent Scotland is on the way VERY SOON. Even a majority in England want an independent England. The truth is Britain doesn't want us. And how are we truly British? Just because we use sterling and support the Queen? Well, you can be British and not support the Queen and be a British Republican.
There is FAR MORE that unites the two communities Ulster than divides us. We are actually quite similar. It's time to start discussing SERIOUSLY a framework for a fair and equal united Ireland that treats both cultures with respect under the banner of a united and inclusive Ireland.
A United Ireland makes much more sense. I feel Irish and have a right to be Irish just as much as anyone else from Dublin, Cork or Galway.
The UK is breaking up anyway and an independent Scotland is on the way VERY SOON. Even a majority in England want an independent England. The truth is Britain doesn't want us. And how are we truly British? Just because we use sterling and support the Queen? Well, you can be British and not support the Queen and be a British Republican.
There is FAR MORE that unites the two communities Ulster than divides us. We are actually quite similar. It's time to start discussing SERIOUSLY a framework for a fair and equal united Ireland that treats both cultures with respect under the banner of a united and inclusive Ireland.
19 Aug 2009 @ 08:24
Comment from: Conrad [Visitor]
" Comment from: XenonII [Visitor] · http://BelieveMail.com
Is Seamus that deluded or is he just being an obnoxious TROLL? There is no majority support to leave the union in either Scotland, England, Wales or Ulster. Western Ulster and western Wales don't want to be in the UK you say? Too bad for them then, as they can't break away from the UK anymore than my home town can."
There WILL be a break-up of the UK within the coming decade. You obviously never saw this poll: CUT AND PASTE LINK:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1535193/Britain-wants-UK-break-up-poll-shows.html
A clear majority of younger Scots in particular want an independent Scotland. XenonII - You are living in a fantasy land. The UK is breaking up and Ireland should be united.
Is Seamus that deluded or is he just being an obnoxious TROLL? There is no majority support to leave the union in either Scotland, England, Wales or Ulster. Western Ulster and western Wales don't want to be in the UK you say? Too bad for them then, as they can't break away from the UK anymore than my home town can."
There WILL be a break-up of the UK within the coming decade. You obviously never saw this poll: CUT AND PASTE LINK:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1535193/Britain-wants-UK-break-up-poll-shows.html
A clear majority of younger Scots in particular want an independent Scotland. XenonII - You are living in a fantasy land. The UK is breaking up and Ireland should be united.
19 Aug 2009 @ 08:33
Comment from: Niall [Visitor]
Conrad, its extremely refreshing to hear someone with a mind of their own in Northern Ireland. Its seems to me that so many peoples views are restricted by their ancestry. I would say the same about a catholic from northern ireland suggesting that being in the UK is ok.
I dont really have much of a view about wether N. Ireland remains british or not. I empathise with the catholics on a number of issues, discrimination, nationalism, republicanism. I consider myself Scottish, not british. Im not a huge fan of the monarchy, although I think the Queen does a good job. I know through the experience of some of my older relatives that there was a fair bit of anti-catholic descrimination they had to endure, this is thankfully not the case anymore in Scotland.
However, since I moved to Belfast last year I have certainly come to respect the unionists. Certainly there are aspects of their society i am not a fan of, orange order, union jacks, Rangers football club (this one I really really really HATE!!!), but these things all occur in Scotland, to a lesser extent though. Most dont associate with the republic, I know where they are coming from because I feel the same about England.
I just hope things get sorted out soon because there are so many great people here.
My other reason for things to be sorted out is because if the effect in Scotland, especially the west. There are a number of Scottish people who are more concerned about Ireland, from both sides. Im pretty sure the division in Ireland spills over to Scotland to some extent. You just need to see an old firm game to see, just count the saltires amongst the tricolours/union jacks/northern irish flags. I find it really depressing.
Also, in reply to XenonII, the older folk of Scotland were brought up during the war or just after certainly are much more unionist. The war certainly brough Scotland very close to the union, but this has changed. I would say Scotland is getting more nationalistic in each generation. Its not split along ethnic or religeous lines so can change very quickly, so dont be surprised if Scotland soon go it alone.
P.S. just to even things up, I also hate Celtic the same as Rangers. As a catholic I find the entire insititution a disgrace to my religeon.
I dont really have much of a view about wether N. Ireland remains british or not. I empathise with the catholics on a number of issues, discrimination, nationalism, republicanism. I consider myself Scottish, not british. Im not a huge fan of the monarchy, although I think the Queen does a good job. I know through the experience of some of my older relatives that there was a fair bit of anti-catholic descrimination they had to endure, this is thankfully not the case anymore in Scotland.
However, since I moved to Belfast last year I have certainly come to respect the unionists. Certainly there are aspects of their society i am not a fan of, orange order, union jacks, Rangers football club (this one I really really really HATE!!!), but these things all occur in Scotland, to a lesser extent though. Most dont associate with the republic, I know where they are coming from because I feel the same about England.
I just hope things get sorted out soon because there are so many great people here.
My other reason for things to be sorted out is because if the effect in Scotland, especially the west. There are a number of Scottish people who are more concerned about Ireland, from both sides. Im pretty sure the division in Ireland spills over to Scotland to some extent. You just need to see an old firm game to see, just count the saltires amongst the tricolours/union jacks/northern irish flags. I find it really depressing.
Also, in reply to XenonII, the older folk of Scotland were brought up during the war or just after certainly are much more unionist. The war certainly brough Scotland very close to the union, but this has changed. I would say Scotland is getting more nationalistic in each generation. Its not split along ethnic or religeous lines so can change very quickly, so dont be surprised if Scotland soon go it alone.
P.S. just to even things up, I also hate Celtic the same as Rangers. As a catholic I find the entire insititution a disgrace to my religeon.
26 Aug 2009 @ 00:23
Comment from: Rab [Visitor]
Remember it was secession that caused the problem. Partition was the result of that secession.
I would guess most Irish nationalists would support Scottish independence. A breaking up of one island and the uniting of another.A lot of this thinking is based on a name,Ireland. The name of the island is Ireland so therefore everybody on it is Irish. This smacks a bit of arrogance. It is our way or no ,and if you do disagree we'll murder and bomb you until you agree seems to be the thinking behind this 'the island is all one'.
Yet, as has been said they recognise the right of Scotland to go its own way,but not the people of British Ulster.
I would guess most Irish nationalists would support Scottish independence. A breaking up of one island and the uniting of another.A lot of this thinking is based on a name,Ireland. The name of the island is Ireland so therefore everybody on it is Irish. This smacks a bit of arrogance. It is our way or no ,and if you do disagree we'll murder and bomb you until you agree seems to be the thinking behind this 'the island is all one'.
Yet, as has been said they recognise the right of Scotland to go its own way,but not the people of British Ulster.
27 Aug 2009 @ 12:53
Comment from: Nerys Williams [Visitor]
I'm a southern Irish Baptist (of distant Welsh ancestors) and I'm not sure if I'd like us to re-join the UK or stay as we are. Although NI is usually called Ulster, only 6 Ulster counties are British. The other three, Donegal, Caven and Monaghan are ROI. The rest of ROI is Munster, Leinster and Connaught. My view is that when Britain went out the door in 1922 Rome came in the window and a worse fate ensued. I wasn't born then but we were taken over by an American Hispanic called DeValara who was devoutly Catholic. My nan says it was like reliving the Spanish Inquisition. She was a child at the time. I married a Catholic who turned Baptist but that would never have happened if it hadn't been for the paedophile scandals causing lots of people to turn away from the church. I don't have much time for religious hatred so never been up north.
19 Sep 2009 @ 00:26
"I don't have much time for religious hatred so never been up north."
No time for religious hatred but plenty of time for non-sensical, sweeping generalisations. You're as much a bigot as anyone here.
No time for religious hatred but plenty of time for non-sensical, sweeping generalisations. You're as much a bigot as anyone here.
19 Sep 2009 @ 18:12
Comment from: Bob Heinrich [Visitor]
Ireland was divided proir to 1920. Refresh yourself with the actions taken at the beginning of WW1 by the english.
I would love to sit down with you and discuss the overall issue. The people who do not want a united Ireland in the North are not Irish. They are the people england gave the land to hundreds of years ago. The issue is not prod against catholic. It is english aagainst Irish. I am a poor Catholic named after Robert Emmett. He fought and died for Ireland afainst the english. What is the big question you cannot answer. england has no right to Ireland. Never has and never will. It is a damn shame england and all the english do not sink below the sea. Slowly so they all suffer. No nation can ever pay for what they have done to the Irish for the past 900 years. God save Ireland. Up the Republic!!!!
I would love to sit down with you and discuss the overall issue. The people who do not want a united Ireland in the North are not Irish. They are the people england gave the land to hundreds of years ago. The issue is not prod against catholic. It is english aagainst Irish. I am a poor Catholic named after Robert Emmett. He fought and died for Ireland afainst the english. What is the big question you cannot answer. england has no right to Ireland. Never has and never will. It is a damn shame england and all the english do not sink below the sea. Slowly so they all suffer. No nation can ever pay for what they have done to the Irish for the past 900 years. God save Ireland. Up the Republic!!!!
24 Jan 2010 @ 07:51
Comment from: irishmark [Member]
NATIONAL IRISH
FREEDOM COMMITTEE
presents
Eire Nua
a
New Beginning
Contents
,, Introduction – The Irish Nation
,, Eire Nua Background
,, The Proposed Eire Nua Constitution
,, Implementation of the Eire Nua Program
,, Eire Nua versus the Good Friday
Agreement
,, The U.S Visa Denial Ploy
,, Stakeholders
,, A New Beginning
Introduction
The Irish Nation
Historical Facts
• Through 1169 - united under the Ard-Ri (High
King) and the provincial kings of Ulster,
Leinster, Munster and Connacht.
• 1169 to 1922 – occupied and under the control
of Norman, English and later British forces.
• 1922 to the present - partitioned by Britain into
two sectarian states, The 6-county Northern
Ireland State, and the 26-county Irish State.
The Partitioned Irish Nation
• The British government ignored the results of the
general election of 1918 wherein the people of
Ireland as a whole voted for a slate of
candidates advocating a free and united Ireland
• The six-county Northern Ireland State was
created by the Government of Ireland Act of
1920. This act by the British parliament was the
first step in partitioning Ireland into two
sectarian states.
• The Irish Free State was created by the Anglo-
Irish Treaty of 1921. This British treaty, imposed
on the remaining twenty-six counties, copperfastened
the partition of the Irish nation.
A divided Ireland resulted in civil war, ethnic
cleansing, sectarian murders, emigration, poverty
and economic stagnation.
• Draconian laws including non-jury courts,
internment without trial, special military tribunals,
secret police and military units, and censorship
have been used in both states to silence
opponents.
• In 1978, the British government was found guilty
of human rights violations by the European Court
of Human Rights.
• The Irish 26-county government was reprimand
by the European Court of Human Rights for their
use of repressive measures against its citizens.
Eire Nua Background
What is Eire Nua?
,, Eire Nua (New Ireland) would replace the
present political entities and governing
administrations created by the British
partition of Ireland
,, Eire Nua would incorporate the four historic
provinces of Ireland into an all-Ireland
Federal Republic
The Historic Basis
,, The four historic provinces of Ireland are
Connacht, Munster, Ulster and Leinster. The
origin of the provinces predate Christian Ireland
,, The significance of the provinces lies in their
diverse culture, economic and historic identities
that are still evident and important in Irish life
today.
The Proposed Constitution
Bill of Rights
,, Would recognize the fundamental dignity and
importance of the individual with a basic right
to be treated as a unique and inviolable human
being.
,, Guarantee the right to life, liberty and security
of person.
,, Guarantee the rights of citizenship, civil rights,
equal rights, workers rights and equal
protection under the law.
Proposed Government
Structures
,, Would provide for a federation of the four
historic provinces of Ireland under the
coordination of a national government.
,, The devolution of powers through provincial
governments to local councils.
,, Citizen participation in their own governance
at all levels of government.
An Independent Judiciary
,, Ensure that the Supreme court as guardians of
the constitution would guarantee judicial
safeguards including the power of judicial
review.
,, Ensure that the government would not
circumvent the constitution for political or other
reasons.
,, Ensure that the court of law would remains a
neutral arena and that verdicts would be based
on all the evidence and rendered by a jury of
peers
Separation of Church and State
,, Prohibit the State from supporting, promoting
or granting special status to any religion
,, Guarantee the right to hold any or no religious
beliefs without prejudice in either the public or
private arena
,, Guarantee that religious morality would not be
legislated to the detriment of non-conformists
or others with differing values
The Implementation
of
Eire Nua
Constituent Assembly
,, The sole function of the Constituent assembly
would be to draft a new Constitution.
,, The Constituent Assembly would be representative
of the whole people of Ireland and would be
elected by the suffrage of the adult population.
,, The draft Constitution would be submitted to the
people in referendum for ratification.
,, The ratified document would become the
fundamental law of the land.
British Withdrawal
,, A commitment by the British government to
withdraw from Ireland after the Irish people have
adopted a new Constitution.
,, A cessation of hostilities coupled with a return to
barracks of all military personnel.
,, A commitment by the British government to
remove all its military hardware.
,, A commitment by the British government not to
arm pro-British para-military organizations during
the withdrawal process.
Release of Political Prisoners
,, Individuals imprisoned for purely political
reasons in Ireland, England, Scotland and
Wales would be freed unconditionally.
,, For individuals imprisoned elsewhere, a
representation would be made for their
release as a gesture of goodwill and
friendship.
,, For individuals who engaged in sectarian
killings or who choose innocent civilians as
their primary target, their cases would be
subject to judicial review to determine their
status.
Eire Nua
versus
the Good Friday Agreement
The Eire Nua Initiative
• Eire Nua is a political initiative that provides for
the reunification of Ireland in the context of a
British withdrawal from the occupied six counties
of Ulster.
• Eire Nua provides for an all-Ireland Federal
Republic incorporating the four historic provinces
of Ulster, Munster, Leinster and Connacht
• Eire Nua provides for new government structures
to replace the existing Irish 26-county
government and the Northern Ireland 6-county
government created by the British to administer
the partition of Ireland.
The Good Friday Agreement
• The GFA is a restatement of the Government
of Ireland Act of 1920 which annexed six Irish
counties into the United Kingdom.
• The centerpiece of the Agreement, the power
sharing executive is a compilation of earlier
failed Agreements repackaged in frilly English
lace.
• The GFA allows the British to retain
sovereignty over six Irish counties and
required the Irish government to relinquish all
constitutional claims to these six Irish
counties.
The U.S. Visa Denial
Ploy
The U.S Government’s Visa Ploy
• The U.S. government’s visa policy as applied to
Irish political activists is based on their stance
with respect to British initiated ‘peace
arrangements’ for the occupied six counties of
Ulster.
• Activists who support British initiated ‘peace
initiatives’ are granted visas, those who oppose
and offer competing solutions are denied visas.
• This U.S. government’s visa ploy has been in
effect for the past 25 years. Since the unveiling
of the GFA more Eire Nua proponents have
been added to the list.
The Consequences of Visa Denials
to Proponents of Eire Nua
• Since 1974, visas have been denied to expert
proponents of the Eire Nua peace formula to enter
the United States to explain its provisions to the
American people.
• This U.S. government’s policy denies the American
people an opportunity to compare the Eire Nua
peace formula to the British arranged Good Friday
Agreement (GFA).
• The suppression of the Eire Nua peace formula
leaves the American people with the impression
that there is no viable alternative to the British
arranged GFA.
Stakeholders
The British Government
• Amongst other reasons the British government fears
that a withdrawal from Ireland would precipitate the
break-up of the United Kingdom of England,
Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
• The British realize that Eire Nua is a comprehensive
Irish authored initiative for peace based on a British
withdrawal from the occupied six counties of Ireland
• The British oppose the promotion of the Eire Nua
initiative in America by RSF representatives whom
they fear would pose a serious threat to their public
relations campaign that touts their ‘peace-keeping’
role.
The 26-County Irish Government
• The 26-county Dublin government’s role is to
maintain the status quo i.e. the partition of
Ireland, an arrangement that has served and
enriched its leading politicians since 1922.
• The Dublin government fears and opposes Eire
Nua because it provides for the maximum
devolution of power to provincial and local levels
in a united Ireland, thus, eliminating their center
of power in Leinster House.
• The Dublin government supports the GFA
because it maintains the status quo and opposes
Eire Nua and would replace their corrupt system
of government.
The 6-county Government
• The 6-county (Stormont) government’s role, not
unlike that of the 26-county government, is to
maintain the status quo, i.e. the partition of
Ireland, a power arrangement that has served
and enriched its leading politicians since 1920.
• The Stormont government support the GFA
because it guarantees and protects the status
quo.
• The Stormont government vehemently oppose
any other solution, i.e. Eire Nua, that would
replace their sectarian and repressive form of
government.
A New Beginning
,, The National Irish Freedom Committee believe
that the Eire Nua program is based on sound
and honorable principles incorporating fair and
realistic plans to achieve national unity within
the framework of an independent Irish
Republic.
,, The NIFC further believe that Eire Nua will
guarantee all of Ireland’s people true freedom,
a home for its children and a new beginning.
FREEDOM COMMITTEE
presents
Eire Nua
a
New Beginning
Contents
,, Introduction – The Irish Nation
,, Eire Nua Background
,, The Proposed Eire Nua Constitution
,, Implementation of the Eire Nua Program
,, Eire Nua versus the Good Friday
Agreement
,, The U.S Visa Denial Ploy
,, Stakeholders
,, A New Beginning
Introduction
The Irish Nation
Historical Facts
• Through 1169 - united under the Ard-Ri (High
King) and the provincial kings of Ulster,
Leinster, Munster and Connacht.
• 1169 to 1922 – occupied and under the control
of Norman, English and later British forces.
• 1922 to the present - partitioned by Britain into
two sectarian states, The 6-county Northern
Ireland State, and the 26-county Irish State.
The Partitioned Irish Nation
• The British government ignored the results of the
general election of 1918 wherein the people of
Ireland as a whole voted for a slate of
candidates advocating a free and united Ireland
• The six-county Northern Ireland State was
created by the Government of Ireland Act of
1920. This act by the British parliament was the
first step in partitioning Ireland into two
sectarian states.
• The Irish Free State was created by the Anglo-
Irish Treaty of 1921. This British treaty, imposed
on the remaining twenty-six counties, copperfastened
the partition of the Irish nation.
A divided Ireland resulted in civil war, ethnic
cleansing, sectarian murders, emigration, poverty
and economic stagnation.
• Draconian laws including non-jury courts,
internment without trial, special military tribunals,
secret police and military units, and censorship
have been used in both states to silence
opponents.
• In 1978, the British government was found guilty
of human rights violations by the European Court
of Human Rights.
• The Irish 26-county government was reprimand
by the European Court of Human Rights for their
use of repressive measures against its citizens.
Eire Nua Background
What is Eire Nua?
,, Eire Nua (New Ireland) would replace the
present political entities and governing
administrations created by the British
partition of Ireland
,, Eire Nua would incorporate the four historic
provinces of Ireland into an all-Ireland
Federal Republic
The Historic Basis
,, The four historic provinces of Ireland are
Connacht, Munster, Ulster and Leinster. The
origin of the provinces predate Christian Ireland
,, The significance of the provinces lies in their
diverse culture, economic and historic identities
that are still evident and important in Irish life
today.
The Proposed Constitution
Bill of Rights
,, Would recognize the fundamental dignity and
importance of the individual with a basic right
to be treated as a unique and inviolable human
being.
,, Guarantee the right to life, liberty and security
of person.
,, Guarantee the rights of citizenship, civil rights,
equal rights, workers rights and equal
protection under the law.
Proposed Government
Structures
,, Would provide for a federation of the four
historic provinces of Ireland under the
coordination of a national government.
,, The devolution of powers through provincial
governments to local councils.
,, Citizen participation in their own governance
at all levels of government.
An Independent Judiciary
,, Ensure that the Supreme court as guardians of
the constitution would guarantee judicial
safeguards including the power of judicial
review.
,, Ensure that the government would not
circumvent the constitution for political or other
reasons.
,, Ensure that the court of law would remains a
neutral arena and that verdicts would be based
on all the evidence and rendered by a jury of
peers
Separation of Church and State
,, Prohibit the State from supporting, promoting
or granting special status to any religion
,, Guarantee the right to hold any or no religious
beliefs without prejudice in either the public or
private arena
,, Guarantee that religious morality would not be
legislated to the detriment of non-conformists
or others with differing values
The Implementation
of
Eire Nua
Constituent Assembly
,, The sole function of the Constituent assembly
would be to draft a new Constitution.
,, The Constituent Assembly would be representative
of the whole people of Ireland and would be
elected by the suffrage of the adult population.
,, The draft Constitution would be submitted to the
people in referendum for ratification.
,, The ratified document would become the
fundamental law of the land.
British Withdrawal
,, A commitment by the British government to
withdraw from Ireland after the Irish people have
adopted a new Constitution.
,, A cessation of hostilities coupled with a return to
barracks of all military personnel.
,, A commitment by the British government to
remove all its military hardware.
,, A commitment by the British government not to
arm pro-British para-military organizations during
the withdrawal process.
Release of Political Prisoners
,, Individuals imprisoned for purely political
reasons in Ireland, England, Scotland and
Wales would be freed unconditionally.
,, For individuals imprisoned elsewhere, a
representation would be made for their
release as a gesture of goodwill and
friendship.
,, For individuals who engaged in sectarian
killings or who choose innocent civilians as
their primary target, their cases would be
subject to judicial review to determine their
status.
Eire Nua
versus
the Good Friday Agreement
The Eire Nua Initiative
• Eire Nua is a political initiative that provides for
the reunification of Ireland in the context of a
British withdrawal from the occupied six counties
of Ulster.
• Eire Nua provides for an all-Ireland Federal
Republic incorporating the four historic provinces
of Ulster, Munster, Leinster and Connacht
• Eire Nua provides for new government structures
to replace the existing Irish 26-county
government and the Northern Ireland 6-county
government created by the British to administer
the partition of Ireland.
The Good Friday Agreement
• The GFA is a restatement of the Government
of Ireland Act of 1920 which annexed six Irish
counties into the United Kingdom.
• The centerpiece of the Agreement, the power
sharing executive is a compilation of earlier
failed Agreements repackaged in frilly English
lace.
• The GFA allows the British to retain
sovereignty over six Irish counties and
required the Irish government to relinquish all
constitutional claims to these six Irish
counties.
The U.S. Visa Denial
Ploy
The U.S Government’s Visa Ploy
• The U.S. government’s visa policy as applied to
Irish political activists is based on their stance
with respect to British initiated ‘peace
arrangements’ for the occupied six counties of
Ulster.
• Activists who support British initiated ‘peace
initiatives’ are granted visas, those who oppose
and offer competing solutions are denied visas.
• This U.S. government’s visa ploy has been in
effect for the past 25 years. Since the unveiling
of the GFA more Eire Nua proponents have
been added to the list.
The Consequences of Visa Denials
to Proponents of Eire Nua
• Since 1974, visas have been denied to expert
proponents of the Eire Nua peace formula to enter
the United States to explain its provisions to the
American people.
• This U.S. government’s policy denies the American
people an opportunity to compare the Eire Nua
peace formula to the British arranged Good Friday
Agreement (GFA).
• The suppression of the Eire Nua peace formula
leaves the American people with the impression
that there is no viable alternative to the British
arranged GFA.
Stakeholders
The British Government
• Amongst other reasons the British government fears
that a withdrawal from Ireland would precipitate the
break-up of the United Kingdom of England,
Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
• The British realize that Eire Nua is a comprehensive
Irish authored initiative for peace based on a British
withdrawal from the occupied six counties of Ireland
• The British oppose the promotion of the Eire Nua
initiative in America by RSF representatives whom
they fear would pose a serious threat to their public
relations campaign that touts their ‘peace-keeping’
role.
The 26-County Irish Government
• The 26-county Dublin government’s role is to
maintain the status quo i.e. the partition of
Ireland, an arrangement that has served and
enriched its leading politicians since 1922.
• The Dublin government fears and opposes Eire
Nua because it provides for the maximum
devolution of power to provincial and local levels
in a united Ireland, thus, eliminating their center
of power in Leinster House.
• The Dublin government supports the GFA
because it maintains the status quo and opposes
Eire Nua and would replace their corrupt system
of government.
The 6-county Government
• The 6-county (Stormont) government’s role, not
unlike that of the 26-county government, is to
maintain the status quo, i.e. the partition of
Ireland, a power arrangement that has served
and enriched its leading politicians since 1920.
• The Stormont government support the GFA
because it guarantees and protects the status
quo.
• The Stormont government vehemently oppose
any other solution, i.e. Eire Nua, that would
replace their sectarian and repressive form of
government.
A New Beginning
,, The National Irish Freedom Committee believe
that the Eire Nua program is based on sound
and honorable principles incorporating fair and
realistic plans to achieve national unity within
the framework of an independent Irish
Republic.
,, The NIFC further believe that Eire Nua will
guarantee all of Ireland’s people true freedom,
a home for its children and a new beginning.
24 Jan 2010 @ 19:50
Comment from: Bradley Ariza [Visitor]
Bob Heinrich, you are an idiot, a nasty, bigoted, idiot.
"The people who do not want a united Ireland in the North are not Irish. They are the people england gave the land to hundreds of years ago."
They may well be decendant of colonial sttlers who stole the land from the Irish but they themselves were born, educated, grew up in those areas, it is their home. They, like it or not, have a basic human right to live, and have their veiws respected, without being punished for the crimes of their Great, Great, Great Grandparents. One of the main reasons that Unionist do not want a united Ireland is because of attidudes like that, telling them that they do not deserve a voice the the country they grew up in. Many Catholics are also actualy descendants of English settlers who settled before England became a protestant country and after a generation or so came to regard themselves as Irish. Do they not deserve to be considered Irish either, should DNA tests be compulsory before someone has the right to vote to ensure a significant proportion of their descendancy is pure Irish?
"It is a damn shame england and all the english do not sink below the sea. Slowly so they all suffer."
The same as I have said for Unionists can be said for the English, the people living in England now had nothing to do with anything that happened in the past. Not only that but vitualy the entire white Englsih wrking class is actualy descended from Irish immegrants (especialy in places like Liverpool and London). I'd be very purprised if you don't have cousins living in England yourself. Does the smae apply to them?
"The people who do not want a united Ireland in the North are not Irish. They are the people england gave the land to hundreds of years ago."
They may well be decendant of colonial sttlers who stole the land from the Irish but they themselves were born, educated, grew up in those areas, it is their home. They, like it or not, have a basic human right to live, and have their veiws respected, without being punished for the crimes of their Great, Great, Great Grandparents. One of the main reasons that Unionist do not want a united Ireland is because of attidudes like that, telling them that they do not deserve a voice the the country they grew up in. Many Catholics are also actualy descendants of English settlers who settled before England became a protestant country and after a generation or so came to regard themselves as Irish. Do they not deserve to be considered Irish either, should DNA tests be compulsory before someone has the right to vote to ensure a significant proportion of their descendancy is pure Irish?
"It is a damn shame england and all the english do not sink below the sea. Slowly so they all suffer."
The same as I have said for Unionists can be said for the English, the people living in England now had nothing to do with anything that happened in the past. Not only that but vitualy the entire white Englsih wrking class is actualy descended from Irish immegrants (especialy in places like Liverpool and London). I'd be very purprised if you don't have cousins living in England yourself. Does the smae apply to them?
25 Jan 2010 @ 10:51
Comment from: John Harper [Visitor]
Eire Nua is not and has never been an organaztion,it was a blue print for a New Ireland,loosley based on the set up of the U.S.A.This idea was touted by the Provos in the late seventies,and supported by the old brigade of Provisional Sinn Fein.Thankfully it has been rejected.
26 Jan 2010 @ 02:44
Comment from: Dublin Boy [Visitor]
Bring Dublin and the rest of Ireland back into the UK- The Southern Government are a bunch of Fuckin Wankers- especially that Cowen Fella- Fat Prick- Does anyone know how to get Dublin back into the UK?
02 Feb 2010 @ 22:39
Comment from: Mark Newman [Visitor]
Dublin boy, I do agree with you
about Brian Cowen. He is a shmuck.
But Ireland never should have
nor should no be governed by England.
For the simple fact, they could
generally care less about the Irish
people as a whole. John Harper, for onee
Eire Nua is the only Republican
proposal that wholly reaches
out to unionists. Think about it.
In a confederated United Ireland,
you will have up to 25% of the
population make up and have so much more
political power and distinctiveness.
In the Uk, you are only 2% of the
population and you little power
in Westminster. Alot of people
from England just do not understand
why unionists feel needful of Britain.
I know, I have talked to alot of
people there who were affected
by the N.Ireland situation.
I no longer see any reason why the
Ireland cannot govern itself as a single
cohesive nation and for once, all
embrace eachother as common countrymen.
We can be at peace as one and have
can be a greater force on global
issues as one. Everything about the
Ulster protestant culture is a
wonderful distinction and unique
part of Irish culture. We do not
need Britain, and we never have.
Lets all sit down as a people from a
very beautiful and wonderful island
and find a way to come together as one!
Mark
about Brian Cowen. He is a shmuck.
But Ireland never should have
nor should no be governed by England.
For the simple fact, they could
generally care less about the Irish
people as a whole. John Harper, for onee
Eire Nua is the only Republican
proposal that wholly reaches
out to unionists. Think about it.
In a confederated United Ireland,
you will have up to 25% of the
population make up and have so much more
political power and distinctiveness.
In the Uk, you are only 2% of the
population and you little power
in Westminster. Alot of people
from England just do not understand
why unionists feel needful of Britain.
I know, I have talked to alot of
people there who were affected
by the N.Ireland situation.
I no longer see any reason why the
Ireland cannot govern itself as a single
cohesive nation and for once, all
embrace eachother as common countrymen.
We can be at peace as one and have
can be a greater force on global
issues as one. Everything about the
Ulster protestant culture is a
wonderful distinction and unique
part of Irish culture. We do not
need Britain, and we never have.
Lets all sit down as a people from a
very beautiful and wonderful island
and find a way to come together as one!
Mark
04 Feb 2010 @ 17:14
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