David McWilliams has an interesting article on the malaise that infects the comatose Northern economy.

It never ceases to amaze me that people just expect government money and the government to sort their problems out. Especially when they go out and vote for deliquents that perpetuate the local problem. I pity the poor English tax payer financing this mess, I'm sure s/he would give money to neither festival if asked - both should quit complaining and consider themselves lucky. Imagine that, a Northern Irish organisation that didn't complain ;-)

I think you could be on to something there John. Spot on.

Wonder how many cans of tenants £104k will buy. Maybe they can use the money to buy some new instruments too, and maybe some music lessons. After all, the beautiful sound of a war drum being beat senseless, accompanied by some high pitch flute rubbish is exactly what will bring foreigners flocking in their droves to see assorted scumbags and assholes getting drunk in a field.
I gonna stick this one out here, the Feile is quality and appeals people from around the world. Even Dutch people wonder why assholes in Northern Ireland celebrate queer old Hunchback King Billy.

So what your argument amounts to Ranier, is that you like the Feile so it deserves it's £45k a year, but you don't like the Orange parades so they don't get their £34k?

By the way, I don't follow the parades a huge deal but even I picked up that there were bands from various countries, including the US over at last year's 12th July.

To put the record straight, the 12th july attracts thousands of people to the parades all over the provience of Ulster, inlcluding brethern and supports from Scotland, England, Republic of Ireland, USA, Canada and Austrailia.

The Orange Order are still under-funded compared to the West Belfast festival.

Rainier, William III was Stadholder of the Netherlands, King of England all the while fighting and defeating the European tyrant Louis XIV (with the support of the Pope) and his allie James II, oversaw the introduction of the first Bill of Rights, Parliamentary reform and constitutional development...not bad for a queer hunchback!

Also had he not done all this the development of republican government, European cooperation and parliamentary democracy would have been seriously stunted. And the Irish hating James II would have sought to destroy Irish Gaelic culture and language.

Everyone from Americans to Zulus have been at Orange parades, and with the promotion and development of Orange culture, many more people will also come.

ps is your surname Wolfcaslte by any chance?

CJ
it is wonderful that so many people from Americans to Zulus make it to NI for the 12th celebrations. It seems everyone is welcome except Irish Catholics. Do you have an explanation for that fact, or would you rather that modern RC's should still be obliged to take the Lord Protectors Oath before they are allowed to own property, do business, eat, sleep, breathe. A very disappointing post from a person who argues on behalf of an organiation that claims to stand for civil and religious liberties.
I await your response, or indeed that of anyone who can answer why oh why the OO are such a bigotted society that comments like CJ's pass without question.
I know a bloke who has a direct claim to the throne of the House of Orange, albeit 4000th inline. He is a good friend. I lived in Holland for 3 years. In the south of the country, which happens to be Catholic. For them, the ritualistic re-enactment of Good King Billy's victory at the Boyne is a mystery. Holland has a sectarian border to this day, but they realise that the Reformation was 3 centuries ago. Do we?

Con, I'm not particularly comfortable with the more religious aspects of the Orange Order, however I'm not sure what you mean by "It seems everyone is welcome except Irish Catholics."

It doesn't matter what nationality you are, you have to be a Protestant to join as it's a Protestant organisation.

What is it exactly that you're referring to that Irish Catholics aren't welcome to? The parades themselves?

Good question Beano.
Obviously Irish Catholics are not welcome at any event to do with the OO. I guess that saying Irish sortof distorts the issue. I accept that, and I hope that you will forgive my tarring of the brush. However, my point remains, CJ, in trying to make the OO's annual festivities multi-cultural and global, neglects to mention that as far as the OO is concerned, no RC's are welome, Irish RC's even less so.
A shame really, we have a common shared history, present and future. We should be able to move on, and I agree that some Nationalist organisations such as AOH/SF put on equally divisive displays throughout the world.
I posted before on your site Beano about my Father watching Orange parades at the field at Finaghy. About my granny doing her shopping on the Shankill.
That is the situation we should be working towards, put food on everyones table, and a paycheck in everyones pocket, then we can woory about the National Question. The Loyal orders, and the Residents groups(SF) will muster all they can forever, but only if we let them.
If Protestants tell the LOL's to fuck off, we want to live in peace, and Catholics do the same to the more extreme elements within Catholicism, maybe we could share this fine island in peace and co-operation.

The thing that bugs me about the Orange Order, like so many others in this country, is that they try to be both political and religious and somewhere along the line one of these aims must be compromised for the other.

Would they prefer to work for the maintenance of the union and allow Catholics to be 'converted' to the cause, or would they prefer to sacrifice the potential for widening the appeal of the Union (and the Order itself) to maintain it's Protestantness? For me the problem is I'm comfortable with the political aims, but totally at odds with their religious aims.

I think that's getting away off the issue at hand here though.

I don't think it's policy of the Orange Order that Catholics (Irish or otherwise) aren't welcome at the parades, though obviously as non-members I would assume they can't actually be part of the procession (then again as an atheist, nor could I).

"CJ
it is wonderful that so many people from Americans to Zulus make it to NI for the 12th celebrations. It seems everyone is welcome except Irish Catholics.

as far as the OO is concerned, no RC's are welome, Irish RC's even less so."

I have never heard or read of anything in the OO that says "no catholics are welcome", indeed you blow your own argument out of the water...

"I posted before on your site Beano about my Father watching Orange parades at the field at Finaghy."

The Orange Order itself makes clear its Qualifications of an Orangeman:

"He should cultivate truth and justice, brotherly kindness and charity, devotion and piety, concord and unity, and obedience to the laws; his deportment should be gentle and compassionate, kind and courteous; he should seek the society of the virtuous, and avoid that of the evil;"

"...ever abstaining from all uncharitable words, actions, or sentiments towards his Roman Catholic brethren"

http://www.orangenet.org/londonderry/qualifications_of_an_orangeman.htm

I don't know the religious makeup of people at Orange parades, i'll assume most are Protestant, but I wont say Catholics aren't welcome I believe they are, can and should be made welcome. In Donegal the annual pre-12th parade is attended by a good number of Catholics. In the USA and Canada Orangemen have Catholic spouses. Perhaps the reason the communities in Ireland seem so at odds is 30+ years of sectarian conflict, and if the funding can help end that division surely it is positive?

"The thing that bugs me about the Orange Order, like so many others in this country, is that they try to be both political and religious and somewhere along the line one of these aims must be compromised for the other."

I agree, they should stick to Christian and cultural matters. Every time they get involved in politics they come off looking worse.

Have to agree beano. The orange do try to play a religious and political game and one comprimises the other. The organisation was started and based on the religious aspect, but has been politicalized over the past few years.

Ranier; a simple bigoted, republican view!!

CJ, Sadly my point is not blown anywhere.
I am not trying to say that The OO should welcome Catholics with open arms. I am merely pointing out that the OO are not as multi-cultural as your post implies.
I watched a parade on the Lisburn Rd 10 years ago on the 12th. The Garvaghy Rd. residents had just been batoned off the street by the cops in front of press, observers and politicians.
As a catholic there is no way that the atmosphere was anything near welcome. Pride of the Village flute band, songs about being up to their knees in Fenian blood ( I think that was it ) Orange Lil's giving blood curdling roars of support to open displays of sectarianism. That is perhaps a snapshot, but I can tell you I was shitting myself. I had to leave to be honest. The thought of being battered to death if anyone discovered I was a catholic just wasn't my cup of tea. (They say some people have an ability to tell your religion from how far apart your eyes are! lol )
So while I witnessed a parade when relations between the OO and nationalists were at their worst for years, and my father witnessed something about 50 years ago, with an atmosphere that could easily be compared to what happens today in Donegal, in other words benign at worst. There is no comparison between the two.
I would rather be in a situation where I could have stood and watched the parade without fear, and that is why catholics are not welcome at OO parades, and Irish catholics even more so. Nothing to do with guidelines on what members of the order can or cannot do.

Unfortunately Con we live in a sectarian country, and when there is sectarian tensions whether because of republican agitation, loyalist violence or police mishandling of protesters, the tensions can spill over into overt displays of "patriotism" or sectarian rhetoric. It can be explained, but not justified.

Now I'm not saying Orange parades are 100% welcoming 100% of the time, but a vast majority of parades are family occasions, the 12th of July is especially. But I suppose I might be seeing it through "orange tinted" glasses. What I will say is that Catholics should be welcomed, and I think it should be with open arms.

Another thing is do you believe Protestants feel welcome at overtly republican displays? St. Patrick’s Day in Belfast was for long enough all about tri-colours and Celtic shirts, and the Feile isn't exactly open to other visions of Irishness. Now it’s not to say an effort isn't being made, especially with regards to St Paddy's day, to make it more open to "the other side". It seems Con, on both sides we try to 'out-liberal' each other by using other ethnicities "Oh look I'm not bigoted...I've made friends with a [Black/Chinese/Indian] person", yet we aren't so welcoming to our "fellow countrymen".

Once again I say it’s the conflict, 30 years of violence, which is responsible for our frictions. And it won't end with a quick fix, it will take a long, long, time, but we have to make the effort. We must try to see the positive in each others cultures, as well as the negative, and if it means gritting our teeth and ignoring the negative then maybe we should try. It’s not easy, and it’s not supposed to be, but it has to be done if we're ever going to move on.

Brilliant stuff CJ, fair play to you.

I could have written that myself!!!

Well, most of it anyway, I don't believe that Protestants would feel particularly welcome at overtly republican displays. I have commented before on the divisive nature of the AOH for example.

St. Patricks day is another issue, for Irish people the world over it is an opportunity for celebrating their Irish heritage, in London, New York, Chicago, Berlin, Paris etc. etc. flying the tricolour and wearing Celtic shirts is not a sign of aggressive republicanism.

In Belfast, due, as you rightly say, to the sectarian nature of our society, it is seen as provocative and offensive. Even though a lot of the people flying the flags are only being happy to be Irish, they are percieved as being sectarian. Many are.

The Feile, well, it certainly is multi-cultural, Basques, Catalans, Palestinians, ANC, Zapatistas, Indian Nation, pretty much every left-wing liberation movement on the planet are represented. Not so the losers of Castro's revolucion in Cuba, Zionists or displaced farmers in Zimbabwe. So while many cultures have an invite, many do not fit the bill.

i have no argument with your last paragraph whatsoever, except to suggest that rather than 30 years of sectarian violence, it is more like 300.

I have always felt that until a generation arrives, who have never lost a loved one through political violence, from the state or from paramilitaries, have never known anyone who has been jailed for such activities, and have never suffered discrimination based on their perceived background, we are almost doomed to an ever decreasing spiral of hatred. To keep that spiral on a downward curve will take great leaps of faith from all concerned.

If I can do it, and CJ can do it, then there is hope.

"St. Patricks day is another issue, for Irish people the world over it is an opportunity for celebrating their Irish heritage, in London, New York, Chicago, Berlin, Paris etc. etc. flying the tricolour and wearing Celtic shirts is not a sign of aggressive republicanism.

In Belfast, due, as you rightly say, to the sectarian nature of our society, it is seen as provocative and offensive. Even though a lot of the people flying the flags are only being happy to be Irish, they are percieved as being sectarian. Many are."

My point Con, is that its not open to the other Irish identity, Ulster Protestants and Anglo-Irish Unionists. We can't/couldn't celebrate the British connection of St Patrick openly, using the Union Jack or Cross of St Patrick, it seems to me the CoSP is as much an Irish symbol as the tri-colour and the Union flag is the identity of Northern Irish unionists. Green, White & Orange and Red, White & Blue mix together ok in Chicago, New York and Boston, why not in Ireland itself. The last St Paddy's day parade used CoSP flags, and many complained it had lost its colour, mainly because the number of flags had been reduced - but nobody was prepared for the alternative - as many flags as you like, so long as Unionists can bring the symbol of their Irish identity.

"My point Con, is that its not open to the other Irish identity, Ulster Protestants and Anglo-Irish Unionists."

Are you Irish? Because the suggestion would offend a great deal of people because youa re Loyalists/Ulster-Scots/Scots/AngloIrish take your fucking pick.

Regardless, ST Pats is a celebration of ther Irish Nation, which you explicitly seek to exclude yourselves from.

"We can't/couldn't celebrate the British connection of St Patrick openly, using the Union Jack or Cross of St Patrick,"

Well you can, but it would be a bit weird.

"it seems to me the CoSP is as much an Irish symbol as the tri-colour"

Well, if you consider a family coat of arms used to shoe horn Ireland into a Union it spent the next couple of hundred years trying to get out of, sure.

"and the Union flag is the identity of Northern Irish unionists. Green, White & Orange and Red, White & Blue mix together ok in Chicago, New York and Boston, why not in Ireland itself."

It's not quite the same thing. Most people will view it with complete bemusement, but go for it.

"The last St Paddy's day parade used CoSP flags, and many complained it had lost its colour, mainly because the number of flags had been reduced - but nobody was prepared for the alternative - as many flags as you like, so long as Unionists can bring the symbol of their Irish identity."

Except the Union Flag isn't a symbol of their Irish Identity, quite the opposite. Most people would not care what you bring. I don't particularly but really this is a subtle attack on Irish Nationalism. It is an attempt to attack our festivals and symbols by going "No, they are ours too, you can't have them" and trying to negate the Irishness (in the sense of the Irish nation, pedants) of them.

Oh, and on the OO, it is an anti-Catholic organisation by both constitution and deed. It also engages in aggression and intimidation.

But of course, Ketholics are welcome.

"Are you Irish? Because the suggestion would offend a great deal of people because youa re Loyalists/Ulster-Scots/Scots/AngloIrish take your fucking pick."

Why do "republicans" get so tetchy about Unionists describing themselves as Irish - after all they've been telling us we're all really Irish for decades! The problem is that we don't want to acquiesce and conform to the Catholic Gaelic anti-British form of Irishness that they adhere to.

Irish goes beyond the partitionist southern state.

Irish goes beyond the partitionist southern state.

Thats what Republicans have been saying for years.

That was what Republicans were denied for years.

I get what you are saying Beano, but the Ulster Protestant, British form of Irishness (huh?) you allude to, is not the only form of Irishness that exists in NI. To look at the mural at Europa Bus Centre depicting daily life in Belfast ( Is it still there? I'll be there on Friday actually, I'll have a look) you would think there were no traditional Irish musicians playing every night of the week, or Irish dancers competeing at Ceili's, or GAA teams getting to the final of the All-Irelands (ok, contentious issue that last one for unionists I admit)

I certainly do not get tetchy to hear Unionists describe themselves as Irish. In fact in May I had reason to attend a Latin Mass in Westminster Cathedral. I had a wander around, as you do, after the service, and found an Irish Chapel, ( St. Patricks possibly ) where Cardinal Hume is buried. On the walls of this chapel are plaques commemorating Irishmen of all denominations, who gave their lives in British uniform in various conflicts. If memory serves me correctly, there is a plaque in memory of RIC men who died in WW!. I take it, please correct me if I am wrong, that that is the type of Irishness to which you are referring.

I found it to be a very moving place to be honest, and has taken me a lot further along the road of understanding the Unionist position. Your site started me on that road, but I do find it quite ironic that I get a major lesson in Unionism, whilst standing in a Catholic cathedral.

"Why do "republicans" get so tetchy about Unionists describing themselves as Irish - after all they've been telling us we're all really Irish for decades! The problem is that we don't want to acquiesce and conform to the Catholic Gaelic anti-British form of Irishness that they adhere to.

Irish goes beyond the partitionist southern state."

I'm not anti-British. I'm anti-Britain-exercising-authority-in-Ireland. There's a rathger humungous difference. I merely wish you would get your head sorted out. While you are Irish, others will bite your head off for it.

With regards to St Patrick's Day... how about instead of waving tricolours and wearing celtic shirts, we wear ireland rugby shirts and flags of OUR patron saint - St Patrick???

Just a suggestion, but then again that might be too much to do for our roman catholic neighbours

For what it's worth, you probably shouldn't confuse Roman Catholic with Republican.

"With regards to St Patrick's Day... how about instead of waving tricolours and wearing celtic shirts, we wear ireland rugby shirts and flags of OUR patron saint - St Patrick???"

I don't have any particular love for Celtic, but if people want to wear Celtic tops, rRangers tops, Man United tops, Barcelona tops, I wasn't aware a free society should be telling people how they dress.

On the rest of the planet, St Patrick's Day is associated with Gaelic Irishness. I wa sin New York last year. Tricolours were everywhere, they even gave little ones out. There are been parades all over the place for at least a century and a half.

St Patrick means a lot to you? Well discounting the fact taht the Saints have no real significance in Protestant Theology, I notice that Unionists had a 60 year period in which to organise St Patrick's Day parades all over NI to any taste they liked. They didn't do it. Now, when Nationalism wants to celebrate it's brand of Irishness, it suddenly becomes an issue.

I'm not for denying anyone their Irishness. Other people seem intent on denying mine,
however.

"On the rest of the planet, St Patrick's Day is associated with Gaelic Irishness. I wa sin New York last year. Tricolours were everywhere, they even gave little ones out. There are been parades all over the place for at least a century and a half."

I find it difficult to believe you're expecting us to take lessons on how to be Irish from the Plastic Paddy brigade in the states.

The problem is nothing to do with celebrating Irishness or any brand thereof, but about celebrating republicanism.

"I find it difficult to believe you're expecting us to take lessons on how to be Irish from the Plastic Paddy brigade in the states."

A huge number of people in America are of Irish descent, and many are hugely proud of it. One of the strengths of Irish Nationalism is the dispora, and how the ideas bounce back and forth. Not all are "plastic paddies".

"The problem is nothing to do with celebrating Irishness or any brand thereof, but about celebrating republicanism."

Republicanism is a proud Irish tradition. You may notice that the South is in fact a Republic, and most Irishmen are Republicans. Why can't I celebrate my Republicanism by displaying the tricolour? IRA flags and the like would be different of course, but no one has mentioned them.

I notice you side stepped my main point. Why did Unionism never organise a parade when they had 50-60 years to do so? It can't be Protestantism, as presbyterians were prominent in starting the early US parades.

I'm not quite sure how you expect me to answer for something that happened (or didn't) long before I was even born.

Unionism is just as proud an Irish tradition as republicanism, yet its symbols are excluded (when the Mayor of Lisburn carried the Union Flag in a parade... in Seattle... this 'offence' was described as "undoubtedly provocative and inappropriate," even though he was simply demonstrating that one can celebrate one's Irishness without disowning one's British identity.

The reason to exclude political symbols is simply because there is no necessity to bring political differences into what is supposed to be a day of celebration.

"I'm not quite sure how you expect me to answer for something that happened (or didn't) long before I was even born."

Speculate. Ask your parents or grandparents. Because if St Pats forms as vitally important part of the Irish Experience for Ulster Prods as it does for the rest of the island and those of Irish descent, why was it never marked?

Good you want to join in, but c'mon stop using it as an excuse to deny my identity.

"Unionism is just as proud an Irish tradition as republicanism, yet its symbols are excluded (when the Mayor of Lisburn carried the Union Flag in a parade... in Seattle... this 'offence' was described as "undoubtedly provocative and inappropriate," even though he was simply demonstrating that one can celebrate one's Irishness without disowning one's British identity."

Was he carrying any Irish symbols too? The Union Jack is associated with Great Britain throughout the world rather than Ireland. The Irish bit is the 'Cross of St Patrick'. That or the Stormont flag are far more appropriate symbols. And you know, the Union Jack makes at least some sense here but in that context, essentially, he went a few thousand miles to be a smart ass prick, score a few cheap political points and be the only dude carrying a Union Jack in a sea of tricolours. No one should be offended, but possibly he should be embarrassed. There are ways to charm people and get them understanding your position without selling out your principles. That isn't one of them. Please tell me he didn't spend tax payers money in the exercise.

"The reason to exclude political symbols is simply because there is no necessity to bring political differences into what is supposed to be a day of celebration."

Celebration of Irishness and Irish identity. For me the symbols of the tricolour and what it represents forms an important part of my identity. The banning of all political symbols is not a gain, it is an absolute loss for everyone. How about we stop being offended by each others symbols (exclusions for paramilitary flags or sectarian organisations, obviously). It is ridiculous I can go anywhere else in the world to celebrate my identity on St Pats, but not my home city. Hell, London, the seat of the powers of darkness has a bloody parade. With tricolours.

And multi coloured shamrocks? FFS!