Good stuff. It needs more elaboration and padding out but as an English unionist I have to say I agreed with pretty much everything it said. A society built along those lines would provide the best future for all the people who live in Northern Ireland.

I should first of all point out that Paul above and myself are 2 different people!

Paul
Thanks!
The document is quite basic, we wanted first of all to state our principles and see if there were others thinking along the same lines as ourselves.

Over the next few months, we hope to expand on the various sections and state how we feel our targets could be achieved within the present political system. Watch this space!

Wrong site, try the one above!

I see that there are 2 sections called secularism and democracy. Yet there is no mention to the current sectarian or undemocratic figurehead/HoS of the United Kingdom. What is proposed to alter this imbalance??

I don't have a problem with a constitutional monarchy, I find the idea of an elected president too divisive (much more-so than the monarchy IMHO). As long as the actual power lies with elected representatives of course.

I'm not sure I'd have a problem with repealing the Act of Settlement (which I believe is what bars Catholics from the throne). Saying that though, I don't believe that the Irish republicans who like trotting out that old chestnut have got anything remotely like progressive motives for doing so, given that the likelihood of it ever impacting directly upon them is slightly remote and even more remote is the chance of it making the UK any more palatable to them.

Too woolly I'm afraid and it falls at the first hurdle of the single national parliament.

If you feel having 18 representatives out of 646 means you have a say in how your affairs are decided, you are sorely mistaken.

For example, this type of understanding of democracy means that a simple act of parliament can cede Northern Ireland to the Republic.

The other big problem is that it doesn't tackle the issue of explaining why those Irish people left stranded in the UK should want to remain there. I am talking about the 40% who voted for unification parties in the last general election, the only poll that matters.

So what if the UK is a big economy. Doesn't matter if you are likely to be richer and your culture is likely to be more cherished in another smaller country called Ireland.

It's like saying unionists should join the Republic because it's richer and is part of the much larger eurozone.

The big issue here is economics. How can Northern Ireland become more prosperous. This well meaning effort doesnt' face this issue.

I have skimmed through most of the pages, and will read them in more detail later.

My initial observance is that I agree with nearly everything - which is why I joined the Ulster Unionist Party.

Garfield

“If you feel having 18 representatives out of 646 means you have a say in how your affairs are decided, you are sorely mistaken”

We have the same per capita representation as any other region of the UK and the UK or even England is quite obviously not a homogeneous unit, compare Surbiton to South Shields, or parts of Glasgow to the posher towns along the English/Scottish border. So, every region has its own concerns and priorities and it’s up to the representatives of each region within the UK to fight for their constituents specific interests, whilst always keeping an eye on the bigger picture. NI is in a no better nor worse position than other regions in this regard, the main problem is that our MPs refuse to work together or even in some cases turn up to fight our corner.

“For example, this type of understanding of democracy means that a simple act of parliament can cede Northern Ireland to the Republic”

In the real world, no they can’t, under the Belfast Agreement it is only the people of NI who can decide that.

But, you’re right, the logic of our position would say that the UK parliament has the ultimate say over our fate. Its up to us to start doing a better PR job for the Union than has been done previously.

“he other big problem is that it doesn't tackle the issue of explaining why those Irish people left stranded in the UK should want to remain there. I am talking about the 40% who voted for unification parties in the last general election, the only poll that matters”

On a pedantic point, 40% didn’t vote for pro/ unification parties, it was approx 28% of the total electorate who did, 72% either voted Unionist or didn’t vote at all. I’ve no idea how the 30/35 % who abstained would vote in a Border Poll although market research and various surveys have shown the figure in favour of maintaining the Union as 55/60%

Re the Irish people “stranded” in the UK…

Unionists are also Irish….maybe you mean all those 1st and 2nd generation Irish presently stranded in England and Scotland, for stranded people theyre not making much of an effort to get home!

Back to your point, why should Irish (I guess you meant Irish nationalists or republicans?) people want to remain in the UK?

At the moment, I’d say basically for economic (and I’ll admit those may be for the large part negative e.g. could the ROI afford to give all our civil servants and quangoists a job?) Hopefully, in the future because they start to feel that their brand of Irishess can coexist beside ours within a more diverse and tolerant NI than weve presently got.

“So what if the UK is a big economy. Doesn't matter if you are likely to be richer and your culture is likely to be more cherished in another smaller country called Ireland.

It's like saying unionists should join the Republic because it's richer and is part of the much larger eurozone.”

A lot of suppositions there.

Would we be richer in a UI?
Would our (whatever it may be) culture be more cherished within a UI….

Regarding the former, even ardent nationalists admit there would be a very difficult “switchover period” and at the minute the ROI couldn’t afford to keep us in the manner to which we’ve become accustomed!
Long term who knows….one thing which Irish nationalism has been very reluctant to commission is an independent cost and benefits analysis of what a UI may involve. Theyre frightened what it may show.

Culture? I take the liberatarian attitude as long as someones culture doesn’t impinge on my rights I don’t give a fiddlers what they get up to. Id hope in 2006 both the UK and ROI governments would take exactly the same attitude.

So what would I have to gain (and I have to gain if I am to decide to change my present situation) to being part of a all Ireland State? It’s 2006, my “culture” is a mosaac, its bits of Britain, bits of Ulster, bits of Ireland and bits of Europe. How would being governed by Dublin improve my present cultural status….why should I change?

“The big issue here is economics. How can Northern Ireland become more prosperous. "

Agreed.
We’ve argued NI will become more prosperous if two factors come into play:

1.NI business starts to take more advantage of the Uks global strength
2.If the UK as a whole and the ROI start to move closer together economically and less importantly politically.

But there is nothing stopping me (if | were an N Irish entrepreneur) in todays global market from investing in the ROI, or Bulgaria or Albania. Businessmen go where the profit is, politics as a rule pays no part. That being the case, why have we not seen all our businessmen and entrepreneurs fleeing south and setting up shop there….

"This well meaning effort doesnt' face this issue"

As I said to Paul, it is a basic document and the economic issues is one of those topics that well be expanding on.

And apologies
For the wayward punctuation, my keyboards playing up!

"My initial observance is that I agree with nearly everything "

Have you read the section about closer ties between the ROI and the UK yet,)

Yes, and I dont think it goes far enough. I want to see the lost 26 counties back in the Union - I'm not a Unionist because I hate "taigs", i'm a Unionist because I believe that I am Irish and British.

The chances of all Ireland becoming Unionist and asking to pretty please rejoin the United Kingdom are... what? About zero to absolutely bugger all?

Paul,
on some of your points.

"Unionists are also Irish….maybe you mean all those 1st and 2nd generation Irish presently stranded in England and Scotland, for stranded people theyre not making much of an effort to get home!"

Some are, not all. There is now the British first, Irish second if at all mentality which is very prevalent in unionism.

"Back to your point, why should Irish (I guess you meant Irish nationalists or republicans?) people want to remain in the UK?"

I mean Irish people who want to live in the same country as the other Irish people on the island. This is where I actually agree with the logic of Michael Shilliday.

The logic of an Irish Unionist has to be integration with the rest of the island, except of course this should take place within an integrated United Kingdom.

How, I don't know!

"At the moment, I’d say basically for economic (and I’ll admit those may be for the large part negative e.g. could the ROI afford to give all our civil servants and quangoists a job?)"

Why should it? Brave new world.

"Would we be richer in a UI?
Would our (whatever it may be) culture be more cherished within a UI…."

I was talking about those within Northern Ireland who vote for unification parties. I assume that one reason is because they would feel their culture would be more cherished there than in the UK. I'm not talking about unionists.

"Regarding the former, even ardent nationalists admit there would be a very difficult “switchover period” and at the minute the ROI couldn’t afford to keep us in the manner to which we’ve become accustomed!
Long term who knows….one thing which Irish nationalism has been very reluctant to commission is an independent cost and benefits analysis of what a UI may involve. Theyre frightened what it may show."

But in the end, you can't put a price on unification if you are a nationalist, just like you can't put a price on maintaining the union if you are a unionist. Cost won't come into it.

"Culture? I take the liberatarian attitude as long as someones culture doesn’t impinge on my rights I don’t give a fiddlers what they get up to. Id hope in 2006 both the UK and ROI governments would take exactly the same attitude."

If only it was so.

"So what would I have to gain (and I have to gain if I am to decide to change my present situation) to being part of a all Ireland State? It’s 2006, my “culture” is a mosaac, its bits of Britain, bits of Ulster, bits of Ireland and bits of Europe. How would being governed by Dublin improve my present cultural status….why should I change?"

Good question, but what if others decide for you? Without lifting a finger, the Republic manages to get 40 per cent of Northern Ireland's voting electorate to vote for unification parties.

The problem for unionism is maintaining enough people in favour of the union and growing the figure so that it really has a feeling of permanence.

At the moment, I wonder how many people think deep down that the border will still exist in 50 years.

The Republic is only now just beginning to flex its new-found economic muscle.

"That being the case, why have we not seen all our businessmen and entrepreneurs fleeing south and setting up shop there…."

How do you know they haven't? There are lot of Northern Ireland's brightest making a living in Dublin these days.

Apologies for the delayed response.

Some interesting stuff there Garfield.

"Unionists are also Irish….maybe you mean all those 1st and 2nd generation Irish presently stranded in England and Scotland, for stranded people theyre not making much of an effort to get home!"

Some are, not all. There is now the British first, Irish second if at all mentality which is very prevalent in unionism.

If a person is born on the island of Ireland, then they are Irish, it's a geographical fact. I'd draw a comparison with somebody born in Germany, he may deny it, but simply by being born on the landmass of Europe, he is a European. He may not take pride in that fact nor give it much priority, but he cannot deny the geographical reality.
The strange thing from my point of view (and we touched on this in the document) if I were an irish nationalist, I'd look to exploit those aspects of *Irishness* that we have in common, such as St Patrick. But as the kerfuffle surrounding the Belfast Parade showed this year, the superficial, mono-cultural (and in the end meaningless) displays of *Irishness*, such as the tricolour seem to be more important than building on the common ground. To an outsider, this seems a very short-sighted tactic.

But in the end, you can't put a price on unification if you are a nationalist, just like you can't put a price on maintaining the union if you are a unionist. Cost won't come into it.

For the politically committed (or Norn Iron's "Mad, Bad and Sad Crew!" as my Missus calls us!) that is undoubtedly true. But we're in 2006, globalisation is pushing the old certainities of both our kinds of nationalism into the background.

A UI could come tomorrow...on paper. It will only work in practice however, if a majority of NI are sufficiently sold the benefits. Nationalist parties command less than 30% of the electorate at the minute, presuming that they will all vote for a UI (and I wouldn't take that as a given), then a helluva lot of work remains for irish nationalism. For example,telling public sector workers that yes, you'll lose your job but there is a brave new world coming won't remove their doubts about their future under a UI.