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Unacceptable Culture
I came across a report on Protestant Alienation in Northern Ireland yesterday and, although it was originally published 12 years ago, much of it still resonates today.
One factor in particular identified as a source of alienation is entitled "The High Profile of Nationalist/Catholic Culture." Even within Northern Ireland it's fairly obvious that one culture is considered more 'acceptable' than the other, and that is the gaelic/celtic culture.
![[image: Red Hand of Ulster]](http://www.everythingulster.com/blogs/media/symbols/red-hand-ulster.png "Red Hand of Ulster")
The Red Hand, long-since removed from the NITB logo.In July 1990 the Northern Ireland Tourist Board, even before it began promoting "Ireland" as a destination, replaced the red hand on its logo with the current shamrock (with a red central leaf). Today, as I looked at a PSNI constable's business card I realised that despite using 6 separate symbols for the PSNI badge (scales of justice, crown, harp, shamrock, laurel branch and torch) the designer managed to completely ignore one of the only symbols that uniquely identifies Ulster/Northern Ireland - the Red Hand (admittedly it would need to be clawed back in popular opinion from the paramilitaries, but this will never happen if we abandon it to them). Christ, even use of the term Ulster itself is usually avoided, despite being much more marketable than "Northern Ireland."
The "Taste of Ulster" shop at Belfast International Airport seems to almost exclusively offer traditionally "quaint Irish" souveneirs of Ireland rather than Ulster or Northern Ireland. At Glasgow airport I noticed one shop selling some great T-Shirts with English definitions of Scots dialect words (blether, eejit, numpty, steamin etc) all of which would sound perfectly familiar in Ulster. We've had the assault of the Irish Gaelic language to the point where it receives £18 million a year in funding (in NI, from the British government) and we're looking at some kind of Irish Language Act in the near future which will doubtlessly increase this figure dramatically. That's a lot of endulgance for a language which probably doesn't have a single monoglot speaker in the country. Oh, and I'm not even starting on Saint Patrick's day or a certain council's last-ditch attempt to consign the name of the city of Londonderry to history.
Follow up:
Arguably, we've nobody to blame but ourselves. Gaelic football, traditional Irish music, the Irish language, Irish dancing etc are all part of a very fashionable trendy Irishness. Meanwhile the other Irish (unionist/British-Irish/Ulster-Scots) haven't learned to promote their own culture sufficiently and also seem unwilling to adopt things like the Irish language as their own due to the fact that these things have too often excluded them or been used to promote an opposing political viewpoint. The result is a near total cultural whitewash.
My suggestion would not be to exclude Irish cultural identity, in fact quite the opposite, I feel we should claim back some ownership of it, as I believe it forms a central part of our own culture and ignoring it would be akin to cutting off our nose to spite our face. I simply believe that we're currently missing an opportunity to take advantage of what distinguishes us from the rest of the island and its inhabitants in favour of focusing exclusively on what binds us together.
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36 comments
I recently discovered that my Irish ancestors were from Ulster, not the Ireland I had imagined. After doing some research it became obvious that the red hand symbol is being forced out of use. The symbol itself seems to have a negative vibe surrounding it.
I am simply an American trying to understand how my Great-Grandparents lived. I feel it is important to hold on to the Ulster culture and not let it die out.
I do not support any of the violence that stems from either side of the Ireland/Norther Ireland debate but I hope that the culture of my recent ancestors will not be lost forever.
I am simply an American trying to understand how my Great-Grandparents lived. I feel it is important to hold on to the Ulster culture and not let it die out.
I do not support any of the violence that stems from either side of the Ireland/Norther Ireland debate but I hope that the culture of my recent ancestors will not be lost forever.
16 Jan 2007 @ 17:48
"The symbol itself seems to have a negative vibe surrounding it."
While I don't want to turn this particular post into a debate about the Red Hand (look up "red hand" and "zoe salmon" on google if you want to see ignorance in action), basically what happened is it was commandeered by various loyalist terrorists so despite still being used by the various GAA (nationalist) teams , it's become associated in many people's minds with unionism and in some cases, specifically with violent loyalism. The problem as I see it is that refusing to use it because of is akin to giving up and letting them steal it when it belongs to everyone in Northern Ireland (or Ulster) regardless of political affiliation.
While I don't want to turn this particular post into a debate about the Red Hand (look up "red hand" and "zoe salmon" on google if you want to see ignorance in action), basically what happened is it was commandeered by various loyalist terrorists so despite still being used by the various GAA (nationalist) teams , it's become associated in many people's minds with unionism and in some cases, specifically with violent loyalism. The problem as I see it is that refusing to use it because of is akin to giving up and letting them steal it when it belongs to everyone in Northern Ireland (or Ulster) regardless of political affiliation.
19 Jan 2007 @ 22:59
Comment from: kensei [Visitor] 
You are missing an important point here. Irish culture has been actively promoted because it is a living growing entity. The Irish language gets 18 million because Nationalism cares about it, even those who don't speak it. Unionism has had as much opportunity, if not more, to ask for money for Ulster Scots or insist that any funding to An Gaeilge recognises the fact that a lot of Protestants spoke it in the past.
Much of current Irish "traditional" music comes from the 60's, with the folk revival and artists that pulled in instruments and sounds from other places as well as traditional stuff and modified and expanded the music. Riverdance nicked lots of stuff from all over and changed very traditional and often dour Irish dancing. Moreover, having a dispora that is actually attached to the place they came from undoubtedly helps in spreading culture and fermenting new ideas. Irish Music owes as much to Shane MacGowan as Christy Moore.
As for St Pats, you'll have to forgive us. It's a celebration of Gaelic Irishness the world over, and it grates we can't have it home.
By contrast, Northern Protestant culture seems to determined to try and preserve itself in aspic. Perhaps it's the lack of freedom by lacking independence, or the siege mentality. Maybe it is just liking things as they are. I don't know. As an Irish Republican, I find this sad. I would genuinely like to see more Northern Prod culture develop (without of course, being some zero sum game against Irish Gaelic culture), as ultimately it would enrich our nation, and for a United Ireland to happen, the orange bit of the flag actually has to mean something. I think SF should back Ulster Scots and more money for Northern protestnat communities without question. The OO would have to change to receive Nationalist support, though.
PS Stop conflating Ulster and NI!
Much of current Irish "traditional" music comes from the 60's, with the folk revival and artists that pulled in instruments and sounds from other places as well as traditional stuff and modified and expanded the music. Riverdance nicked lots of stuff from all over and changed very traditional and often dour Irish dancing. Moreover, having a dispora that is actually attached to the place they came from undoubtedly helps in spreading culture and fermenting new ideas. Irish Music owes as much to Shane MacGowan as Christy Moore.
As for St Pats, you'll have to forgive us. It's a celebration of Gaelic Irishness the world over, and it grates we can't have it home.
By contrast, Northern Protestant culture seems to determined to try and preserve itself in aspic. Perhaps it's the lack of freedom by lacking independence, or the siege mentality. Maybe it is just liking things as they are. I don't know. As an Irish Republican, I find this sad. I would genuinely like to see more Northern Prod culture develop (without of course, being some zero sum game against Irish Gaelic culture), as ultimately it would enrich our nation, and for a United Ireland to happen, the orange bit of the flag actually has to mean something. I think SF should back Ulster Scots and more money for Northern protestnat communities without question. The OO would have to change to receive Nationalist support, though.
PS Stop conflating Ulster and NI!
29 Jan 2007 @ 00:10
Comment from: David Fairfield [Visitor]
In response to Kensei.
What I find sad is the fact you have no understanding of the Northern Ireland Protestant. We are British not Irish. Republicans have been trying to stop Protestant culture for years and calling us bigots for being proud of our British heritage. Equality in Northern Ireland is not about throwing money in equal measure to both sides.
As for St Patricks Day it should not be a celebration of Gaelic Irishness as you call it, this is Republican propaganda.
St Patrick brought the Christian faith to Ireland when the island of Ireland was part of the British empire.
What I find sad is the fact you have no understanding of the Northern Ireland Protestant. We are British not Irish. Republicans have been trying to stop Protestant culture for years and calling us bigots for being proud of our British heritage. Equality in Northern Ireland is not about throwing money in equal measure to both sides.
As for St Patricks Day it should not be a celebration of Gaelic Irishness as you call it, this is Republican propaganda.
St Patrick brought the Christian faith to Ireland when the island of Ireland was part of the British empire.
18 Feb 2007 @ 10:40
The posts on this subject are a prime example of what confuses me about NI. really what is the difference which flag you are flying? If you are flying the flag with the red hand only to pay homage to your British?irish roots...what is the problem with that? The division of country is boggling to me. The only thing I can liken it to living on the other side of the pond is the American Civil War and the southern pride vs. northern pride. All of Ireland is a beautifu country - no doubt - can't it be united? I am trying to understand all this....
03 Mar 2007 @ 14:46
Comment from: kensei [Visitor]
"In response to Kensei.
What I find sad is the fact you have no understanding of the Northern Ireland Protestant."
This I fully accept.
"We are British not Irish."
Now this is where it all gets a bit head melting. Because Unionists have variously told me that the are British, Northern Irish, Irish, Just-as-Irish-as-you, Ulstermen, Scots-Irish, Ulster Scottish, all of the above or just some of the above.
What hope have I, really?
"Republicans have been trying to stop Protestant culture for years and calling us bigots for being proud of our British heritage."
No, republicans have been trying to express their own culture for years and point out that a lot of Protestant "culture" isn't. Marching? Ok. marching down one particular street to annoy/intimidate people. Not fine. Bonfires, great. Burning tricolours with "KAT" on them or tasteless slogans about dead Catholics? Not so cool. And I do believe Paisley marched through West Belfast at one stage because a triicolour in a shop offended him. It's all a bit rich really.
That said, personally I think that Republicans should do more to support positive aspects of Ulster Protestant culture rather than just point out the negative, because my flag recognises the importance of both.
"Equality in Northern Ireland is not about throwing money in equal measure to both sides."
So... the Orange Order or twelfth bonfires should get funded form my taxes but the West Belfast festival shouldn't? Why is that fair, exactly?
"As for St Patricks Day it should not be a celebration of Gaelic Irishness as you call it, this is Republican propaganda."
Go to any major city in the world on St Patrick's. See what type of Irishness the are celebrating then come back to me, and try not to tella bear faced lie about what you saw.
"St Patrick brought the Christian faith to Ireland when the island of Ireland was part of the British empire."
Are you on crack? England wasn't even unified when St Patrick was about, nevermind Britain nevermind Britain and Ireland. The nearest Empire, historically speaking was the Roman.
And what he brought was Catholicism, David. ;-)
What I find sad is the fact you have no understanding of the Northern Ireland Protestant."
This I fully accept.
"We are British not Irish."
Now this is where it all gets a bit head melting. Because Unionists have variously told me that the are British, Northern Irish, Irish, Just-as-Irish-as-you, Ulstermen, Scots-Irish, Ulster Scottish, all of the above or just some of the above.
What hope have I, really?
"Republicans have been trying to stop Protestant culture for years and calling us bigots for being proud of our British heritage."
No, republicans have been trying to express their own culture for years and point out that a lot of Protestant "culture" isn't. Marching? Ok. marching down one particular street to annoy/intimidate people. Not fine. Bonfires, great. Burning tricolours with "KAT" on them or tasteless slogans about dead Catholics? Not so cool. And I do believe Paisley marched through West Belfast at one stage because a triicolour in a shop offended him. It's all a bit rich really.
That said, personally I think that Republicans should do more to support positive aspects of Ulster Protestant culture rather than just point out the negative, because my flag recognises the importance of both.
"Equality in Northern Ireland is not about throwing money in equal measure to both sides."
So... the Orange Order or twelfth bonfires should get funded form my taxes but the West Belfast festival shouldn't? Why is that fair, exactly?
"As for St Patricks Day it should not be a celebration of Gaelic Irishness as you call it, this is Republican propaganda."
Go to any major city in the world on St Patrick's. See what type of Irishness the are celebrating then come back to me, and try not to tella bear faced lie about what you saw.
"St Patrick brought the Christian faith to Ireland when the island of Ireland was part of the British empire."
Are you on crack? England wasn't even unified when St Patrick was about, nevermind Britain nevermind Britain and Ireland. The nearest Empire, historically speaking was the Roman.
And what he brought was Catholicism, David. ;-)
03 Mar 2007 @ 20:00
Comment from: David Fairfield [Visitor]
Do you have to be offensive. OK your right. The British Empire was not for centuries. My apologies for that one error. Youre right it was under Roman rule.
However their religion worshiped a bunch of Gods. There was no Catholicism at this time.
St Patrick was an Englishman who brought the Christain faith.
A few more points,
No, you are right Orange Order and Bonfires should be paid for by the tax payer but then neither should the Irish language or Roman Catholic schools.
The Orange Order was created because the pope hasd decreed that all protestants to the Roman Catholic faith should be wiped out, therefore the organisation ws set up to "defend the faith".
The flag you refer to is the tri-colour which may have started life with the intention you say but it is still a republican symbol.
How others celebrate St Patricks Day means nothing since it is more whimsy than Christian.
The only flag for St Patricks Day is the flag of St Patrick.
However their religion worshiped a bunch of Gods. There was no Catholicism at this time.
St Patrick was an Englishman who brought the Christain faith.
A few more points,
No, you are right Orange Order and Bonfires should be paid for by the tax payer but then neither should the Irish language or Roman Catholic schools.
The Orange Order was created because the pope hasd decreed that all protestants to the Roman Catholic faith should be wiped out, therefore the organisation ws set up to "defend the faith".
The flag you refer to is the tri-colour which may have started life with the intention you say but it is still a republican symbol.
How others celebrate St Patricks Day means nothing since it is more whimsy than Christian.
The only flag for St Patricks Day is the flag of St Patrick.
09 Mar 2007 @ 12:44
Comment from: kensei [Visitor]
"Do you have to be offensive. OK your right. The British Empire was not for centuries. My apologies for that one error. Youre right it was under Roman rule."
No offence meant, just in tabloid stylee. The Roman presence in Ireland was minimal, even in comparison to Britain. There were probably a mixture of competing tribes, chieftains and petty kings.
"However their religion worshiped a bunch of Gods. There was no Catholicism at this time."
Hard to say when exactly Patrick was active, but it is sometime in the 5th Century. There was most certainly a Catholic Church, and if you read the Wiki page, it is suggested he was ordained and sent by a Pope. And if you check the History of the Catholic Church page, you'll see the first use of the term is 110.
And a requirement for St Patrick to convert the Irish would be that they were actually Christian at the time.
"St Patrick was an Englishman who brought the Christain faith."
Another one no one is certain on - English, Welsh, French?
"No, you are right Orange Order and Bonfires should be paid for by the tax payer but then neither should the Irish language or Roman Catholic schools."
Read that again and try again.
"The Orange Order was created because the pope hasd decreed that all protestants to the Roman Catholic faith should be wiped out, therefore the organisation ws set up to "defend the faith"."
Actually no, the Pope wanted William to win. The OO was set up due to a number of local circumstances. Some of which may have made sense at the time, but no longer really do. the Pope won't have you killed, except maybe by force lightening. There are also Muslims and Buddhists and Atheists and Hindus who Protestants would theological disagree with, and singling out Catholicsm is a bad thing in our society. You can be Pro-Protestant. Isn't that enough?
"The flag you refer to is the tri-colour which may have started life with the intention you say but it is still a republican symbol."
It is the flag of a state. Republicans have loyalty to that flag so they display it. By that token, the Union Jack should not be displayed as it is a loyalist symbol.
It wasn't the point I was trying to make. True republican strive to the ideal of that flag, so they should be finding ways to help the orange aprt be respected.
"How others celebrate St Patricks Day means nothing since it is more whimsy than Christian.
The only flag for St Patricks Day is the flag of St Patrick."
That is a flag of dubious providence.
And yes, how everyone else celebrates stuff does matter. Because Nationalism quite likes it, and being told here's the only place on the planet where we can't have a parade/party tends to piss us off.
No offence meant, just in tabloid stylee. The Roman presence in Ireland was minimal, even in comparison to Britain. There were probably a mixture of competing tribes, chieftains and petty kings.
"However their religion worshiped a bunch of Gods. There was no Catholicism at this time."
Hard to say when exactly Patrick was active, but it is sometime in the 5th Century. There was most certainly a Catholic Church, and if you read the Wiki page, it is suggested he was ordained and sent by a Pope. And if you check the History of the Catholic Church page, you'll see the first use of the term is 110.
And a requirement for St Patrick to convert the Irish would be that they were actually Christian at the time.
"St Patrick was an Englishman who brought the Christain faith."
Another one no one is certain on - English, Welsh, French?
"No, you are right Orange Order and Bonfires should be paid for by the tax payer but then neither should the Irish language or Roman Catholic schools."
Read that again and try again.
"The Orange Order was created because the pope hasd decreed that all protestants to the Roman Catholic faith should be wiped out, therefore the organisation ws set up to "defend the faith"."
Actually no, the Pope wanted William to win. The OO was set up due to a number of local circumstances. Some of which may have made sense at the time, but no longer really do. the Pope won't have you killed, except maybe by force lightening. There are also Muslims and Buddhists and Atheists and Hindus who Protestants would theological disagree with, and singling out Catholicsm is a bad thing in our society. You can be Pro-Protestant. Isn't that enough?
"The flag you refer to is the tri-colour which may have started life with the intention you say but it is still a republican symbol."
It is the flag of a state. Republicans have loyalty to that flag so they display it. By that token, the Union Jack should not be displayed as it is a loyalist symbol.
It wasn't the point I was trying to make. True republican strive to the ideal of that flag, so they should be finding ways to help the orange aprt be respected.
"How others celebrate St Patricks Day means nothing since it is more whimsy than Christian.
The only flag for St Patricks Day is the flag of St Patrick."
That is a flag of dubious providence.
And yes, how everyone else celebrates stuff does matter. Because Nationalism quite likes it, and being told here's the only place on the planet where we can't have a parade/party tends to piss us off.
09 Mar 2007 @ 23:25
Comment from: David Fairfield [Visitor]
Your history is obviously different to mine.
I am not going to get into a discussion on your religion. It doesn't matter to me when rome decided to give up worshiping many gods and decide to vote for a pope to dictate to their flock, or whatever way the Roman Catholic church was created.
Ireland as an island has never, in my view been governed by an Irish Republican government so I see no sense in the republican term "the re-unification of Ireland.
If it was Roman Catholicism St Patrick brought to Ireland then why are we told the St Patrick's Day celebrations are cross-community and St Patrick is for everyone.
You obviously missed my point on how everyone else celebrates St Patricks. In their parades I do not see a celebration of the Christian faith but loads of Irish whimsy.
As far as I am aware no one has said St Patrick can not be celebrated in Northern Ireland.
What has been said is it should be cross-community which it is not. There is a sea of tri-colours the flag of the Republic of Ireland which has nothing to do with Northern Ireland There have even been people in the crowds collecting money for republican prisoners.
St Patrick was a Christian and deserves his name to be used with more respect than a proud to be a republican day.
I am not going to get into a discussion on your religion. It doesn't matter to me when rome decided to give up worshiping many gods and decide to vote for a pope to dictate to their flock, or whatever way the Roman Catholic church was created.
Ireland as an island has never, in my view been governed by an Irish Republican government so I see no sense in the republican term "the re-unification of Ireland.
If it was Roman Catholicism St Patrick brought to Ireland then why are we told the St Patrick's Day celebrations are cross-community and St Patrick is for everyone.
You obviously missed my point on how everyone else celebrates St Patricks. In their parades I do not see a celebration of the Christian faith but loads of Irish whimsy.
As far as I am aware no one has said St Patrick can not be celebrated in Northern Ireland.
What has been said is it should be cross-community which it is not. There is a sea of tri-colours the flag of the Republic of Ireland which has nothing to do with Northern Ireland There have even been people in the crowds collecting money for republican prisoners.
St Patrick was a Christian and deserves his name to be used with more respect than a proud to be a republican day.
10 Mar 2007 @ 10:41
Comment from: kensei [Visitor]
"Your history is obviously different to mine."
I don't e ehow. Look it up, it's right.
"I am not going to get into a discussion on your religion. It doesn't matter to me when rome decided to give up worshiping many gods and decide to vote for a pope to dictate to their flock, or whatever way the Roman Catholic church was created."
Well, actually, it is important because if there is no Catholic Church there are no Protestant Churches. You cannot Protest against something that does not exist.
"Ireland as an island has never, in my view been governed by an Irish Republican government so I see no sense in the republican term "the re-unification of Ireland."
No, but it has been united under various other types of government in the past. hence "reunification" but no problem to "unification" either.
"If it was Roman Catholicism St Patrick brought to Ireland then why are we told the St Patrick's Day celebrations are cross-community and St Patrick is for everyone."
Because at the time Catholicism = Christianity. It is something I have also pondered because I did not believe the Saints had any particular significance in Protestant Theology.
"You obviously missed my point on how everyone else celebrates St Patricks. In their parades I do not see a celebration of the Christian faith but loads of Irish whimsy."
And you missed my point that is exactly what I am saying. As a Catholic, the religious aspects of the day matter to me and I attend Church. As a Nationalist, the ton of Irish Whimsy is also important.
"As far as I am aware no one has said St Patrick can not be celebrated in Northern Ireland."
Not like everywhere else.
"What has been said is it should be cross-community which it is not. There is a sea of tri-colours the flag of the Republic of Ireland which has nothing to do with Northern Ireland There have even been people in the crowds collecting money for republican prisoners."
Here is a link to London's St Patrick Day parade:
http://www.london.gov.uk/stpatricksday/
Do you see what I see? The Tricolour has a lot to do with Northern Ireland. There are a lot of people living there to whom that is their flag "Republicans" of all hues - it doesn't translate to the IRA. Even the SDLP are Republicans because they want an Irish Republic.
I have no problems with other expressions of Irishness being involved. I simply reject the idea that somehow the existence of others should prevent me form expressing mine.
"St Patrick was a Christian and deserves his name to be used with more respect than a proud to be a republican day."
It's actually a proud to be Irish Day.
I don't e ehow. Look it up, it's right.
"I am not going to get into a discussion on your religion. It doesn't matter to me when rome decided to give up worshiping many gods and decide to vote for a pope to dictate to their flock, or whatever way the Roman Catholic church was created."
Well, actually, it is important because if there is no Catholic Church there are no Protestant Churches. You cannot Protest against something that does not exist.
"Ireland as an island has never, in my view been governed by an Irish Republican government so I see no sense in the republican term "the re-unification of Ireland."
No, but it has been united under various other types of government in the past. hence "reunification" but no problem to "unification" either.
"If it was Roman Catholicism St Patrick brought to Ireland then why are we told the St Patrick's Day celebrations are cross-community and St Patrick is for everyone."
Because at the time Catholicism = Christianity. It is something I have also pondered because I did not believe the Saints had any particular significance in Protestant Theology.
"You obviously missed my point on how everyone else celebrates St Patricks. In their parades I do not see a celebration of the Christian faith but loads of Irish whimsy."
And you missed my point that is exactly what I am saying. As a Catholic, the religious aspects of the day matter to me and I attend Church. As a Nationalist, the ton of Irish Whimsy is also important.
"As far as I am aware no one has said St Patrick can not be celebrated in Northern Ireland."
Not like everywhere else.
"What has been said is it should be cross-community which it is not. There is a sea of tri-colours the flag of the Republic of Ireland which has nothing to do with Northern Ireland There have even been people in the crowds collecting money for republican prisoners."
Here is a link to London's St Patrick Day parade:
http://www.london.gov.uk/stpatricksday/
Do you see what I see? The Tricolour has a lot to do with Northern Ireland. There are a lot of people living there to whom that is their flag "Republicans" of all hues - it doesn't translate to the IRA. Even the SDLP are Republicans because they want an Irish Republic.
I have no problems with other expressions of Irishness being involved. I simply reject the idea that somehow the existence of others should prevent me form expressing mine.
"St Patrick was a Christian and deserves his name to be used with more respect than a proud to be a republican day."
It's actually a proud to be Irish Day.
10 Mar 2007 @ 20:41
Comment from: David Fairfield [Visitor]
Irish whimsey is important???
Not to me since I am not Irish, I do not understand what it has to do with St Patrick.
Again the Tri-colour is the flag of the Republic of Ireland and nothing to do with Northern Ireland.
Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom.
Just because you want an all-Ireland does not make it so, or that it should be. I did not say it translated to the IRA.
Like most flags and symbols in Northern Ireland, it is used out of context to suit a particular purpose.
St Patricks Day is still in my view a proud to be a republican day.
Not to me since I am not Irish, I do not understand what it has to do with St Patrick.
Again the Tri-colour is the flag of the Republic of Ireland and nothing to do with Northern Ireland.
Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom.
Just because you want an all-Ireland does not make it so, or that it should be. I did not say it translated to the IRA.
Like most flags and symbols in Northern Ireland, it is used out of context to suit a particular purpose.
St Patricks Day is still in my view a proud to be a republican day.
11 Mar 2007 @ 12:42
Comment from: kensei [Visitor]
"Irish whimsey is important???
Not to me since I am not Irish, I do not understand what it has to do with St Patrick."
It is if you are Irish. There is both a religious and secular component to St Patrick's Day. The secular component is clearly a celebration of Irishness.
"Again the Tri-colour is the flag of the Republic of Ireland and nothing to do with Northern Ireland."
Aside from all those people living there to whom it is there flag. It has nothing to do with London, but if you check that link above you will see them. It has nothing to do with New York, but they gave them out when I was there last year. And so on, and so forth.
"Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom.
Just because you want an all-Ireland does not make it so, or that it should be. I did not say it translated to the IRA."
The current constitutional status has no bearing on this argument. IRA is your implication behind "Republican", btw.
"St Patricks Day is still in my view a proud to be a republican day."
I'm sorry for you.
Not to me since I am not Irish, I do not understand what it has to do with St Patrick."
It is if you are Irish. There is both a religious and secular component to St Patrick's Day. The secular component is clearly a celebration of Irishness.
"Again the Tri-colour is the flag of the Republic of Ireland and nothing to do with Northern Ireland."
Aside from all those people living there to whom it is there flag. It has nothing to do with London, but if you check that link above you will see them. It has nothing to do with New York, but they gave them out when I was there last year. And so on, and so forth.
"Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom.
Just because you want an all-Ireland does not make it so, or that it should be. I did not say it translated to the IRA."
The current constitutional status has no bearing on this argument. IRA is your implication behind "Republican", btw.
"St Patricks Day is still in my view a proud to be a republican day."
I'm sorry for you.
11 Mar 2007 @ 19:10
Comment from: David Fairfield [Visitor]
My god you really are condensending.
Typical reply ignores what you can't handle.
On the one hand St Patricks Day is supposed to be for everyone and yet to you it is only for republicans.
St Patrick was not an irish republican he was a Christian.
Thank you for vindicating my comments.
If you must comment on anything in the future, it is best to do it with an open mind.
Typical reply ignores what you can't handle.
On the one hand St Patricks Day is supposed to be for everyone and yet to you it is only for republicans.
St Patrick was not an irish republican he was a Christian.
Thank you for vindicating my comments.
If you must comment on anything in the future, it is best to do it with an open mind.
12 Mar 2007 @ 09:09
Comment from: kensei [Visitor]
"On the one hand St Patricks Day is supposed to be for everyone and yet to you it is only for republicans."
People throughout the world enjoy St Patrick's Day as a celebration of Irishness, including those of non-Christian faith and those of no faith. Please check out that link about the London parade - unlikely to be many Republicans there.
"St Patrick was not an irish republican he was a Christian."
As a Catholic, yes he was a Christian. You are not really getting my point though. St Patrick's Day is a religious festival but also a secular one. The secular one is a celebration of Irishness. Kind of like how Christmas these days combines both. So there is celebration of St Patrick the Christian by the churches, and the Irish stuff is the equivalent of Santa Claus.
I mark both. I go to mass on St Pats, and I party after. Mark either or none in your own way, just don't rain on my parade, dude.
"Thank you for vindicating my comments.
If you must comment on anything in the future, it is best to do it with an open mind."
Irony explosion!
People throughout the world enjoy St Patrick's Day as a celebration of Irishness, including those of non-Christian faith and those of no faith. Please check out that link about the London parade - unlikely to be many Republicans there.
"St Patrick was not an irish republican he was a Christian."
As a Catholic, yes he was a Christian. You are not really getting my point though. St Patrick's Day is a religious festival but also a secular one. The secular one is a celebration of Irishness. Kind of like how Christmas these days combines both. So there is celebration of St Patrick the Christian by the churches, and the Irish stuff is the equivalent of Santa Claus.
I mark both. I go to mass on St Pats, and I party after. Mark either or none in your own way, just don't rain on my parade, dude.
"Thank you for vindicating my comments.
If you must comment on anything in the future, it is best to do it with an open mind."
Irony explosion!
12 Mar 2007 @ 18:35
Comment from: Norn Iron [Visitor]
I was at the St Pat's parade in belfast today. It was a well organised event and most people in attendance seemed to enjoy the parade & the concert. As a person from the greater shankill area I must admit I felt alienated by the overwhelming display of tricolours. I sorta felt like I shouldn't have been there, that this wasn't for me. During the festivities I called into McHughes pub for a quick pint. Even though the mood was jovial It was a bit intimidating for me to see so many people draped in the flag of the irish republic. I drunk my pint & left. Anywhere else in the world I wouldn't have a problem with the waving or wearing of tricolours, I ve had great craic in many an irish bar but in northern ireland the triclour takes on very political connotations. There are plenty of other symbols of ireland that relate to the whole of the island. I'm totally happy with people dressed head to toe in green, waving shamrock flags, celtic crosses, or wearing silly hats. Nor have I a problem with people wearing gaa & celtic tops but i just don't undertstand why mothers would want to drape their kids in flags of the irish republic for a fun day out in belfast. I found myself wondering if there were many other protestants there & if they felt as awkward as me.
Reckon i'll celebrate oul st. paddy in my own way next year. I don't think i'd go back to a parade in belfast.
Reckon i'll celebrate oul st. paddy in my own way next year. I don't think i'd go back to a parade in belfast.
17 Mar 2007 @ 21:10
Comment from: kensei [Visitor]
"I was at the St Pat's parade in belfast today. It was a well organised event and most people in attendance seemed to enjoy the parade & the concert. As a person from the greater shankill area I must admit I felt alienated by the overwhelming display of tricolours. I sorta felt like I shouldn't have been there, that this wasn't for me. During the festivities I called into McHughes pub for a quick pint. Even though the mood was jovial It was a bit intimidating for me to see so many people draped in the flag of the irish republic. I drunk my pint & left. Anywhere else in the world I wouldn't have a problem with the waving or wearing of tricolours, I ve had great craic in many an irish bar but in northern ireland the triclour takes on very political connotations. There are plenty of other symbols of ireland that relate to the whole of the island. I'm totally happy with people dressed head to toe in green, waving shamrock flags, celtic crosses, or wearing silly hats. Nor have I a problem with people wearing gaa & celtic tops but i just don't undertstand why mothers would want to drape their kids in flags of the irish republic for a fun day out in belfast. I found myself wondering if there were many other protestants there & if they felt as awkward as me.
Reckon i'll celebrate oul st. paddy in my own way next year. I don't think i'd go back to a parade in belfast."
I was out, briefly, in Belfast City Centre over the Twelfth last year and found it a somewhat terrifying experience. After the main stuff, wasn't a lot of people about but anyone who was either had - a Union Jack or an old Stormont flag, or something - hat, stupid hat, sunglasses etc with said on. I was fucking bollock scared and was wishing I hadn't run out of food.
It's not quite equivalent, because Belfast stays open on St Pats and I don't claim the Twelfth represents anything to me, but I did notice equivalent Tricolour versions of the above (mainly on 10-15 year olds) and did reflect that there were probably be people that felt like I did in reverse. As for the reason, come now, I assume you understand the Twelfth, so it should be easy to understand why people do it. St Patrick's = Irish Celebration = Tricolours as the Irish flag they are proud of.
I don't think that Tricolours should be banned. That leads to some drab cross community shit that invokes no passion and no pride in anyone. Rather, I would rather multiple parades coming from different places and people bringing the flags that matter to them, then joining up for one big one and everyone getting along. I think it's doable, if the will was there.
Reckon i'll celebrate oul st. paddy in my own way next year. I don't think i'd go back to a parade in belfast."
I was out, briefly, in Belfast City Centre over the Twelfth last year and found it a somewhat terrifying experience. After the main stuff, wasn't a lot of people about but anyone who was either had - a Union Jack or an old Stormont flag, or something - hat, stupid hat, sunglasses etc with said on. I was fucking bollock scared and was wishing I hadn't run out of food.
It's not quite equivalent, because Belfast stays open on St Pats and I don't claim the Twelfth represents anything to me, but I did notice equivalent Tricolour versions of the above (mainly on 10-15 year olds) and did reflect that there were probably be people that felt like I did in reverse. As for the reason, come now, I assume you understand the Twelfth, so it should be easy to understand why people do it. St Patrick's = Irish Celebration = Tricolours as the Irish flag they are proud of.
I don't think that Tricolours should be banned. That leads to some drab cross community shit that invokes no passion and no pride in anyone. Rather, I would rather multiple parades coming from different places and people bringing the flags that matter to them, then joining up for one big one and everyone getting along. I think it's doable, if the will was there.
18 Mar 2007 @ 03:01
It's a nice idea Kensei (and I genuinely mean that), but I have to disagree on the "it's doable" part. I think you give "us," as a collective, too much credit.
18 Mar 2007 @ 12:01
Comment from: AISI [Visitor]
kensei do you have to repeat what everyone says?
On your points on the 12th. My personal view is that you were hardly terrified but if you were then you will understand two wrongs don't make a right. We are as proud of our flag as you are of yours.
The flag you call the Stormont flag is incorrectly called the Ulster flag, however although since 1973 it is no longer the offical flag of Northern Ireland government it is recognised throughout the world as the flag of Northern Ireland and we know how important what the rest of the world thinks is to you.
The official flag of Northern Ireland the Union flag.
One other point there are many areas in Northern Ireland that used to be known as Protestant areas and are now Roman Catholic. So Catholics seem to have no fear living in a Protestant area but it is not the same the other way round.
On your points on the 12th. My personal view is that you were hardly terrified but if you were then you will understand two wrongs don't make a right. We are as proud of our flag as you are of yours.
The flag you call the Stormont flag is incorrectly called the Ulster flag, however although since 1973 it is no longer the offical flag of Northern Ireland government it is recognised throughout the world as the flag of Northern Ireland and we know how important what the rest of the world thinks is to you.
The official flag of Northern Ireland the Union flag.
One other point there are many areas in Northern Ireland that used to be known as Protestant areas and are now Roman Catholic. So Catholics seem to have no fear living in a Protestant area but it is not the same the other way round.
18 Mar 2007 @ 12:58
Comment from: Norn Iron [Visitor]
Kensei, yeah I can understand how you must have felt at the twelth parade but to be fair the twelth is a sectarian event by definition. It's a celebration of protestantism & the connection to the british crown. St. patrick's day should be a day for all christian faiths in all of ireland. Ulster people have more cause than most to celebrate patrick as most of his legacy is based in the north, a part of ireland that has never flown the tricolour as its national flag.
Yes st. pats day is a celebration of irishness but not nesseceraliy the irish republic. I can honestly say that I understand nationalists would want to wave the tricolour to represent their irishness but as the only flag in attendance (apart from the union flag flying over costum house) it does alienate over half the population.
Your idea of feeder parades from different areas bringing their own flags would be a great in an ideal world but can you really see that happening in the near future!? It reminds me of that Daniel Day-Lewis movie - the Boxer, where people from the shankill, with faces painted red, white & blue and draped with union jacks stood proudly hand in hand with people from the falls, in green, white & orange to support an ex IRA man turned professional boxer!!... That wouldn't even happen in a parallel universe!
On a happier note, after I came home from the parade on saturday I called into my local shop (in loyalist north belfast)and I was pleasantly suprised to see a mother with her two children, both of which were wearing huge green furry hats with shamrocks painted on their faces. They were obviously at the parade. I think it's proof that protestants want to celebrate St. patrick too. I wonder if they'll be back next year?
Yes st. pats day is a celebration of irishness but not nesseceraliy the irish republic. I can honestly say that I understand nationalists would want to wave the tricolour to represent their irishness but as the only flag in attendance (apart from the union flag flying over costum house) it does alienate over half the population.
Your idea of feeder parades from different areas bringing their own flags would be a great in an ideal world but can you really see that happening in the near future!? It reminds me of that Daniel Day-Lewis movie - the Boxer, where people from the shankill, with faces painted red, white & blue and draped with union jacks stood proudly hand in hand with people from the falls, in green, white & orange to support an ex IRA man turned professional boxer!!... That wouldn't even happen in a parallel universe!
On a happier note, after I came home from the parade on saturday I called into my local shop (in loyalist north belfast)and I was pleasantly suprised to see a mother with her two children, both of which were wearing huge green furry hats with shamrocks painted on their faces. They were obviously at the parade. I think it's proof that protestants want to celebrate St. patrick too. I wonder if they'll be back next year?
18 Mar 2007 @ 14:30
Comment from: kensei [Visitor]
"Kensei, yeah I can understand how you must have felt at the twelth parade but to be fair the twelth is a sectarian event by definition. It's a celebration of protestantism & the connection to the british crown."
See, the problem with that is it's a wee bit "what's yours is mine and what's mine is mine". When do I get to celebrate my identity?
"St. patrick's day should be a day for all christian faiths in all of ireland. Ulster people have more cause than most to celebrate patrick as most of his legacy is based in the north, a part of ireland that has never flown the tricolour as its national flag."
As I pointed out above, St Patrick's Day everywhere else is a celebration of what is basically, the Gaelic brand of Irishness. Everywhere else it basically performs the function of the Twelfth for Irish people. There is no 4th of July for Ireland; St Patrick's Day takes on that role. That is simply a fact. Most Nationalists simply want to do what everyone else is doing. It is nothing more sinister than that.
Ulster also includes three counties that are definitely represented by the Tricolour, btw.
"Yes st. pats day is a celebration of irishness but not nesseceraliy the irish republic. I can honestly say that I understand nationalists would want to wave the tricolour to represent their irishness but as the only flag in attendance (apart from the union flag flying over costum house) it does alienate over half the population."
I am happy for other forms of Irishness to be celebrated. I think it should be encouraged. As a Republican, I want to develop an overarching Irishness that can take in everyone - be it Nationalist, Unionist or new arrivals from wherever. That is very important. But I don't want that at the expense of each of the individual components losing what they are and the things that make them unique. My concern is that people try to use their Irishness to suppress mine.
I would be concerned with the fact I think it would have been difficult to fly other flags, rather than there were tricolours there.
"Your idea of feeder parades from different areas bringing their own flags would be a great in an ideal world but can you really see that happening in the near future!?"
I think it could work, if the political will was there. City Hall had a Union Jack and a Cross of St Patrick, which was pathetic and looked it. How much better would it have been if all flags of Ireland had have been flying across - including mine of course ;-) but also the 4 Provinces flag, the NI Stormont Flag etc. It would probably need to be heavily stewarded and have a big education campaign initially, but I think it could be made to work. We need to get to a point where we are not afraid to express ourselves for fear of offending the other.
"On a happier note, after I came home from the parade on saturday I called into my local shop (in loyalist north belfast)and I was pleasantly suprised to see a mother with her two children, both of which were wearing huge green furry hats with shamrocks painted on their faces. They were obviously at the parade. I think it's proof that protestants want to celebrate St. patrick too. I wonder if they'll be back next year?"
Hopefully. I would like Nationalists to be able to go to town to look at what's going on with the Orange parades (and the whole bastarding place not being shut down, either). I have little fear they would catch Unionist off it. But it would take a fair bit of movement from the OO first dealing with the inherent anti-Catholicism.
See, the problem with that is it's a wee bit "what's yours is mine and what's mine is mine". When do I get to celebrate my identity?
"St. patrick's day should be a day for all christian faiths in all of ireland. Ulster people have more cause than most to celebrate patrick as most of his legacy is based in the north, a part of ireland that has never flown the tricolour as its national flag."
As I pointed out above, St Patrick's Day everywhere else is a celebration of what is basically, the Gaelic brand of Irishness. Everywhere else it basically performs the function of the Twelfth for Irish people. There is no 4th of July for Ireland; St Patrick's Day takes on that role. That is simply a fact. Most Nationalists simply want to do what everyone else is doing. It is nothing more sinister than that.
Ulster also includes three counties that are definitely represented by the Tricolour, btw.
"Yes st. pats day is a celebration of irishness but not nesseceraliy the irish republic. I can honestly say that I understand nationalists would want to wave the tricolour to represent their irishness but as the only flag in attendance (apart from the union flag flying over costum house) it does alienate over half the population."
I am happy for other forms of Irishness to be celebrated. I think it should be encouraged. As a Republican, I want to develop an overarching Irishness that can take in everyone - be it Nationalist, Unionist or new arrivals from wherever. That is very important. But I don't want that at the expense of each of the individual components losing what they are and the things that make them unique. My concern is that people try to use their Irishness to suppress mine.
I would be concerned with the fact I think it would have been difficult to fly other flags, rather than there were tricolours there.
"Your idea of feeder parades from different areas bringing their own flags would be a great in an ideal world but can you really see that happening in the near future!?"
I think it could work, if the political will was there. City Hall had a Union Jack and a Cross of St Patrick, which was pathetic and looked it. How much better would it have been if all flags of Ireland had have been flying across - including mine of course ;-) but also the 4 Provinces flag, the NI Stormont Flag etc. It would probably need to be heavily stewarded and have a big education campaign initially, but I think it could be made to work. We need to get to a point where we are not afraid to express ourselves for fear of offending the other.
"On a happier note, after I came home from the parade on saturday I called into my local shop (in loyalist north belfast)and I was pleasantly suprised to see a mother with her two children, both of which were wearing huge green furry hats with shamrocks painted on their faces. They were obviously at the parade. I think it's proof that protestants want to celebrate St. patrick too. I wonder if they'll be back next year?"
Hopefully. I would like Nationalists to be able to go to town to look at what's going on with the Orange parades (and the whole bastarding place not being shut down, either). I have little fear they would catch Unionist off it. But it would take a fair bit of movement from the OO first dealing with the inherent anti-Catholicism.
18 Mar 2007 @ 14:59
Comment from: Norn Iron [Visitor]
"See, the problem with that is it's a wee bit "what's yours is mine and what's mine is mine". When do I get to celebrate my identity?"
Not strictly true. I'm sure there are plenty of events where you can celebrate your republicanism, catholicism and ''brand'' of irishness that I would have no interest in or feel a belonging to. I would expect to feel alienated at a republican parade for instance. The only point of contention for me were the flags. The songs, celtic culture & the celebration of irishness are not a problem.
St Patrick is the patron saint of my country of birth, the tricolour is not the flag of my country of birth. Why does st Patricks day have to be a celebration of the gaelic brand of irishness in belfast when it should be open to everyone? A lot of protestant churches and organisations celebrate st pats day in a non gaelic branded way. There is more than one 'brand' of irishness although most people around the world don't know any better. Unfortunately NI is not like everywhere else when it comes to national identity.
"My concern is that people try to use their Irishness to suppress mine."
But that is exactly how I was feeling at the parade. How do you think I would have been received if I had walked into McHughes with a union jack around my shoulders? Slightly suppressed to say the least. I understand that flying the tricolour is a show of nationalist pride but I think to drape oneself in a tricolour (or an ulster banner for that matter) in a neutral zone like belfast city centre is a bit sinister as they know it offends & prokoves others.
''City Hall had a Union Jack and a Cross of St Patrick, which was pathetic and looked it. How much better would it have been if all flags of Ireland had have been flying across - including mine of course ;-) but also the 4 Provinces flag, the NI Stormont Flag etc''
Again I don't see why anyone would expect to see the flag of the republic flying above the city hall on st patrick's day, the st patrick saltire is just as fitting for representing the land of the saint, although personally I wouldn't object to all four flags flying on that day as a sign of friendship & good will.
Not strictly true. I'm sure there are plenty of events where you can celebrate your republicanism, catholicism and ''brand'' of irishness that I would have no interest in or feel a belonging to. I would expect to feel alienated at a republican parade for instance. The only point of contention for me were the flags. The songs, celtic culture & the celebration of irishness are not a problem.
St Patrick is the patron saint of my country of birth, the tricolour is not the flag of my country of birth. Why does st Patricks day have to be a celebration of the gaelic brand of irishness in belfast when it should be open to everyone? A lot of protestant churches and organisations celebrate st pats day in a non gaelic branded way. There is more than one 'brand' of irishness although most people around the world don't know any better. Unfortunately NI is not like everywhere else when it comes to national identity.
"My concern is that people try to use their Irishness to suppress mine."
But that is exactly how I was feeling at the parade. How do you think I would have been received if I had walked into McHughes with a union jack around my shoulders? Slightly suppressed to say the least. I understand that flying the tricolour is a show of nationalist pride but I think to drape oneself in a tricolour (or an ulster banner for that matter) in a neutral zone like belfast city centre is a bit sinister as they know it offends & prokoves others.
''City Hall had a Union Jack and a Cross of St Patrick, which was pathetic and looked it. How much better would it have been if all flags of Ireland had have been flying across - including mine of course ;-) but also the 4 Provinces flag, the NI Stormont Flag etc''
Again I don't see why anyone would expect to see the flag of the republic flying above the city hall on st patrick's day, the st patrick saltire is just as fitting for representing the land of the saint, although personally I wouldn't object to all four flags flying on that day as a sign of friendship & good will.
18 Mar 2007 @ 17:03
Comment from: kensei [Visitor]
"Not strictly true. I'm sure there are plenty of events where you can celebrate your republicanism, catholicism and ''brand'' of irishness that I would have no interest in or feel a belonging to. I would expect to feel alienated at a republican parade for instance. The only point of contention for me were the flags. The songs, celtic culture & the celebration of irishness are not a problem."
No, it is strictly true. There is no public holiday for a celebration of Gaelic Irishness (other than St Pats) the as there is for the Twelfth. Many Republicans wouldn't be particularly attracted by "Republican" parades anyway. And they tend to ad hoc and local rather than National celebration.
Why the particular problem with the flag? It is important to me, and many others.
"St Patrick is the patron saint of my country of birth, the tricolour is not the flag of my country of birth. Why does st Patricks day have to be a celebration of the gaelic brand of irishness in belfast when it should be open to everyone? A lot of protestant churches and organisations celebrate st pats day in a non gaelic branded way. There is more than one 'brand' of irishness although most people around the world don't know any better. Unfortunately NI is not like everywhere else when it comes to national identity."
I didn't say that those things should be unwelcome or that it shouldn't be open to everyone; merely that all should be welcome including mine. Also note - Unionists controlled Belfast City Council right into the eighties, they had the opportunity to organise things in whatever fashion they liked but they never did. It was Nationalists who made it an issue because we wanted a celebration.
Haven't heard any suggestions on how you could be included better other than by suppressing my festivities. I am genuinely interested: what do you see as your "Irish" as opposed to "British".
"But that is exactly how I was feeling at the parade. How do you think I would have been received if I had walked into McHughes with a union jack around my shoulders? Slightly suppressed to say the least. I understand that flying the tricolour is a show of nationalist pride but I think to drape oneself in a tricolour (or an ulster banner for that matter) in a neutral zone like belfast city centre is a bit sinister as they know it offends & prokoves others."
So, would you then agree that the Union Jack should be removed from Belfast City Hall and other places? I don't like it there, and it flys a hell of a lot more than one day a year. What about public funding for Orange Parades? That completely alienates me and I'm paying for it through my rates.
We then get into a situation where no one gets anything. I don't want to live like that, personally. I want you to be able to express yourself freely and afford me the same.
"Again I don't see why anyone would expect to see the flag of the republic flying above the city hall on st patrick's day, the st patrick saltire is just as fitting for representing the land of the saint, although personally I wouldn't object to all four flags flying on that day as a sign of friendship & good will."
Is the Republic not also part of Ireland that is being celebrated on St Patrick's Day? Are there not as almost as many Nationalists as Unionists in Belfast for whom that is their flag? Try to see things from their perspective. I don't think St Patrick's Cross particularly represents Ireland, being of dubious providence and probably an English invention. I don't particularly like the Stormont flag or the Union Jack either, but I did suggest they should all be there.
No, it is strictly true. There is no public holiday for a celebration of Gaelic Irishness (other than St Pats) the as there is for the Twelfth. Many Republicans wouldn't be particularly attracted by "Republican" parades anyway. And they tend to ad hoc and local rather than National celebration.
Why the particular problem with the flag? It is important to me, and many others.
"St Patrick is the patron saint of my country of birth, the tricolour is not the flag of my country of birth. Why does st Patricks day have to be a celebration of the gaelic brand of irishness in belfast when it should be open to everyone? A lot of protestant churches and organisations celebrate st pats day in a non gaelic branded way. There is more than one 'brand' of irishness although most people around the world don't know any better. Unfortunately NI is not like everywhere else when it comes to national identity."
I didn't say that those things should be unwelcome or that it shouldn't be open to everyone; merely that all should be welcome including mine. Also note - Unionists controlled Belfast City Council right into the eighties, they had the opportunity to organise things in whatever fashion they liked but they never did. It was Nationalists who made it an issue because we wanted a celebration.
Haven't heard any suggestions on how you could be included better other than by suppressing my festivities. I am genuinely interested: what do you see as your "Irish" as opposed to "British".
"But that is exactly how I was feeling at the parade. How do you think I would have been received if I had walked into McHughes with a union jack around my shoulders? Slightly suppressed to say the least. I understand that flying the tricolour is a show of nationalist pride but I think to drape oneself in a tricolour (or an ulster banner for that matter) in a neutral zone like belfast city centre is a bit sinister as they know it offends & prokoves others."
So, would you then agree that the Union Jack should be removed from Belfast City Hall and other places? I don't like it there, and it flys a hell of a lot more than one day a year. What about public funding for Orange Parades? That completely alienates me and I'm paying for it through my rates.
We then get into a situation where no one gets anything. I don't want to live like that, personally. I want you to be able to express yourself freely and afford me the same.
"Again I don't see why anyone would expect to see the flag of the republic flying above the city hall on st patrick's day, the st patrick saltire is just as fitting for representing the land of the saint, although personally I wouldn't object to all four flags flying on that day as a sign of friendship & good will."
Is the Republic not also part of Ireland that is being celebrated on St Patrick's Day? Are there not as almost as many Nationalists as Unionists in Belfast for whom that is their flag? Try to see things from their perspective. I don't think St Patrick's Cross particularly represents Ireland, being of dubious providence and probably an English invention. I don't particularly like the Stormont flag or the Union Jack either, but I did suggest they should all be there.
18 Mar 2007 @ 18:22
Comment from: AISI [Visitor]
First of all the flag issue.
You don't like the St Patricks flag because it was probably an English invention. How sectarian can you get. You don't like the Union flag or Northern Ireland flag because they show connection to the mainland.
Northern Ireland IS part of the United Kingdom. Wanting it to be part of the Republic of Ireland is an aspiration.
You are suggesting that you have respect for all cultures this in my view is nonsense.
You want Protestants to celebrate their Irishness while at the same time you are not prepared to celebrate your Britishness.
St Patrick was not an Irish Republican, nor was he Irish.
You don't like the St Patricks flag because it was probably an English invention. How sectarian can you get. You don't like the Union flag or Northern Ireland flag because they show connection to the mainland.
Northern Ireland IS part of the United Kingdom. Wanting it to be part of the Republic of Ireland is an aspiration.
You are suggesting that you have respect for all cultures this in my view is nonsense.
You want Protestants to celebrate their Irishness while at the same time you are not prepared to celebrate your Britishness.
St Patrick was not an Irish Republican, nor was he Irish.
19 Mar 2007 @ 08:44
Comment from: kensei [Visitor]
"You don't like the St Patricks flag because it was probably an English invention. How sectarian can you get."
I don't like the St Patrick's Flag because it doesn't represent me - being, in all probability, an English invention rather than an Irish one. "Not like" is probably a bit strong. "Completely indifferent" to is probably more accurate.
"You don't like the Union flag or Northern Ireland flag because they show connection to the mainland."
Mainland? Where is that? Europe?
In and of itself I don't care for the Union Jack, but as a Republican I resent it being flown over Irish buildings as I do not think Britain should have any authority here. I accept they do because 50+1 of the people insist on it. It doesn't mean I have to like it.
"Northern Ireland IS part of the United Kingdom. Wanting it to be part of the Republic of Ireland is an aspiration."
Yes, but it is an aspiration held by about 42% of people here, if we go by the latest elections. They want their culture visible even if it isn't official. I'm sorry you feel threatened by it.
"You are suggesting that you have respect for all cultures this in my view is nonsense."
You are 100% right. We should only have respect for Ulster Protestant culture.
Classic.
"You want Protestants to celebrate their Irishness while at the same time you are not prepared to celebrate your Britishness."
Yeah, see the thing is I'm not British. Not even a wee bit. This is not something that works in reverse. I claim only one identity. I have no Britishness to celebrate. If Unionists have no Irish identity I wouldn't be for pushing them into celebrating it. But, as you can see it's coming from them and not me.
"St Patrick was not an Irish Republican, nor was he Irish."
He is though, the patron saint of Ireland, all of it.
I don't like the St Patrick's Flag because it doesn't represent me - being, in all probability, an English invention rather than an Irish one. "Not like" is probably a bit strong. "Completely indifferent" to is probably more accurate.
"You don't like the Union flag or Northern Ireland flag because they show connection to the mainland."
Mainland? Where is that? Europe?
In and of itself I don't care for the Union Jack, but as a Republican I resent it being flown over Irish buildings as I do not think Britain should have any authority here. I accept they do because 50+1 of the people insist on it. It doesn't mean I have to like it.
"Northern Ireland IS part of the United Kingdom. Wanting it to be part of the Republic of Ireland is an aspiration."
Yes, but it is an aspiration held by about 42% of people here, if we go by the latest elections. They want their culture visible even if it isn't official. I'm sorry you feel threatened by it.
"You are suggesting that you have respect for all cultures this in my view is nonsense."
You are 100% right. We should only have respect for Ulster Protestant culture.
Classic.
"You want Protestants to celebrate their Irishness while at the same time you are not prepared to celebrate your Britishness."
Yeah, see the thing is I'm not British. Not even a wee bit. This is not something that works in reverse. I claim only one identity. I have no Britishness to celebrate. If Unionists have no Irish identity I wouldn't be for pushing them into celebrating it. But, as you can see it's coming from them and not me.
"St Patrick was not an Irish Republican, nor was he Irish."
He is though, the patron saint of Ireland, all of it.
19 Mar 2007 @ 13:52
Comment from: buster [Member]
This about sums up the whole situation. Tit for tat point scoring which achieves absolutely nothing. Never mind the fact that most of the suppositions on which each side bases their versions of history or what constitutes their identity are flawed, (in the context of parades anyway).
Lets be absolutely honest about this, lets think about what is being discussed here; the cult of St Patrick has become the number one way to celebrate Oirishness across the world. The way that elements of the population "at home" have bought into this ersatz celebration is akin to the spread of McDonalds culture globally, McPaddies Day. The sight of NY firefighters dressed in the uniform of 18th century Scottish Highland Infantrymen every 17th of March makes me cringe.
Next up; 12th of July parades. These annual demonstrations are about one thing and one thing only-sectarianism. The Battle of the Diamond was a long long time ago. It's admirable to cherish and remember your heritage but not in an overtly "anti" fashion which alienates the other half of the population. These parades used to be attended by everyone, especially in rural areas-what happened? The annual demonstration in Rossnowlagh probably represents the acceptable face of the 12th, civil and religious freedom for all. I was thinking of taking my daughter to see the parades in Bangor this year, as I was taken as a child, but I won't, you can feel the hatred. And by the way, you may be surprised to hear, amongst my generation this reflects the majority opinion.
Anyone remember the United Irishmen? Anyone remember the thousands of men from the 16th Division who fought and died alongside the Ulstermen of the 36th? Irish was spoken by members of the population of the North Ards peninsula 200 years ago, including Presbyterian ministers. Just a few examples of elements of a common experience and culture that have been hijacked and or denied by one side or another.
It's about time everyone caught their breath, shut their mouths and thought. A quick bit of online research would quickly empty the heads of sweetie mice on which all the usual bollix is spouted in the name of whatever and perhaps a realisation would descend upon everyone as to the things we all have in common.
Naiomh Padraig, St Paddy, Prince William of Orange, King Billy whatever you want to call them, would be astounded by what is being done and invoked in thier names.
And by the way Patrick was born in part of the ancient Kingdom of Strathclyde that now forms the modern day eastern Anglo Scottish Borders and was a Brython (Briton), that is to say he spoke P-Gaelic or something similar to modern day Welsh. And erm, William was a Dutchman..............
Lets be absolutely honest about this, lets think about what is being discussed here; the cult of St Patrick has become the number one way to celebrate Oirishness across the world. The way that elements of the population "at home" have bought into this ersatz celebration is akin to the spread of McDonalds culture globally, McPaddies Day. The sight of NY firefighters dressed in the uniform of 18th century Scottish Highland Infantrymen every 17th of March makes me cringe.
Next up; 12th of July parades. These annual demonstrations are about one thing and one thing only-sectarianism. The Battle of the Diamond was a long long time ago. It's admirable to cherish and remember your heritage but not in an overtly "anti" fashion which alienates the other half of the population. These parades used to be attended by everyone, especially in rural areas-what happened? The annual demonstration in Rossnowlagh probably represents the acceptable face of the 12th, civil and religious freedom for all. I was thinking of taking my daughter to see the parades in Bangor this year, as I was taken as a child, but I won't, you can feel the hatred. And by the way, you may be surprised to hear, amongst my generation this reflects the majority opinion.
Anyone remember the United Irishmen? Anyone remember the thousands of men from the 16th Division who fought and died alongside the Ulstermen of the 36th? Irish was spoken by members of the population of the North Ards peninsula 200 years ago, including Presbyterian ministers. Just a few examples of elements of a common experience and culture that have been hijacked and or denied by one side or another.
It's about time everyone caught their breath, shut their mouths and thought. A quick bit of online research would quickly empty the heads of sweetie mice on which all the usual bollix is spouted in the name of whatever and perhaps a realisation would descend upon everyone as to the things we all have in common.
Naiomh Padraig, St Paddy, Prince William of Orange, King Billy whatever you want to call them, would be astounded by what is being done and invoked in thier names.
And by the way Patrick was born in part of the ancient Kingdom of Strathclyde that now forms the modern day eastern Anglo Scottish Borders and was a Brython (Briton), that is to say he spoke P-Gaelic or something similar to modern day Welsh. And erm, William was a Dutchman..............
19 Mar 2007 @ 14:33
My God, Buster, thanks for that breath of fresh air. This conversation was getting decidedly stale. Aside from the assertion about where St Patrick was born (AFAIK it was disputed and the current theory seems to think it was Wales, but whether that's right or not, its neither here nor there) you make a number of very valid points and I'd find it difficult to argue with most of them - and it only took 25 posts to get there.
19 Mar 2007 @ 17:26
Comment from: kensei [Visitor]
Except, beano, he is completely fucking wrong.
"This about sums up the whole situation. Tit for tat point scoring which achieves absolutely nothing. Never mind the fact that most of the suppositions on which each side bases their versions of history or what constitutes their identity are flawed, (in the context of parades anyway)."
There is undoubtedly an element of point scoring on both sides. But strip past that and there equally undoubtedly something deeper and more important being expressed. It isn't really about St Patrick or King Billy or whoever else. It is about us, in the here and now, who we are and who we want to be. It is right and proper to celebrate that. Sometimes it isn't perfect and there are bits that are small, exclusive or ignorant rather than big, embracing and warm. But then, none of us are perfect and the good mixes with the bad.
I think I have repeatedly stated that yes, I want to see other forms of Irishness celebrated here on St Patrick's rather than just my own. The United Irishmen represented an ideal that was unfortunately eclipsed. The ministers who spoke Irish were more than likely in favour of the Union; and the Irishmen who fought in the 16th Division were fighting on the promise of exactly the opposite of what those in the 36th (I would of corse assert that tells you all you need to know about how rulers). Yes, we have things in common but that doesn't mean we are all the same or that our own, individual bits don't deserve to be celebrated and represented within that.
"This about sums up the whole situation. Tit for tat point scoring which achieves absolutely nothing. Never mind the fact that most of the suppositions on which each side bases their versions of history or what constitutes their identity are flawed, (in the context of parades anyway)."
There is undoubtedly an element of point scoring on both sides. But strip past that and there equally undoubtedly something deeper and more important being expressed. It isn't really about St Patrick or King Billy or whoever else. It is about us, in the here and now, who we are and who we want to be. It is right and proper to celebrate that. Sometimes it isn't perfect and there are bits that are small, exclusive or ignorant rather than big, embracing and warm. But then, none of us are perfect and the good mixes with the bad.
I think I have repeatedly stated that yes, I want to see other forms of Irishness celebrated here on St Patrick's rather than just my own. The United Irishmen represented an ideal that was unfortunately eclipsed. The ministers who spoke Irish were more than likely in favour of the Union; and the Irishmen who fought in the 16th Division were fighting on the promise of exactly the opposite of what those in the 36th (I would of corse assert that tells you all you need to know about how rulers). Yes, we have things in common but that doesn't mean we are all the same or that our own, individual bits don't deserve to be celebrated and represented within that.
19 Mar 2007 @ 18:57
Comment from: kensei [Visitor]
Oh, and by the by, the reason the discuss gets stale is because I'm the only one putting my side across, and as soon as I've started a discussion with one person that might get interesting, then someone else comes along to tell me:
1. I am sectarian for well, just being a Nationalist and having no particular love for the Union Jack
2. I don't understand prods (which I think we can safely establish as 100% true)
3. Tricolours are the spawn of Satan and why the hell would anyone want one about the place
4. St Patrick wasn't a Republican and was British (before such terms had ever really been modernly defined, of course)
etc etc etc
Most of which I have already answered at least once.
Oh, and I missed this:
"It's a nice idea Kensei (and I genuinely mean that), but I have to disagree on the "it's doable" part. I think you give "us," as a collective, too much credit."
The first barriers are always in the mind. If you can't overcome those, nothing will ever be done.
1. I am sectarian for well, just being a Nationalist and having no particular love for the Union Jack
2. I don't understand prods (which I think we can safely establish as 100% true)
3. Tricolours are the spawn of Satan and why the hell would anyone want one about the place
4. St Patrick wasn't a Republican and was British (before such terms had ever really been modernly defined, of course)
etc etc etc
Most of which I have already answered at least once.
Oh, and I missed this:
"It's a nice idea Kensei (and I genuinely mean that), but I have to disagree on the "it's doable" part. I think you give "us," as a collective, too much credit."
The first barriers are always in the mind. If you can't overcome those, nothing will ever be done.
19 Mar 2007 @ 19:04
Comment from: buster [Member]
Kensei, reading your post a couple of times I can't help feeling that you are agreeing with most of what I was trying to say. Point scoring doesn't actually take the debate any further forward, we both agree that there are different forms of "Irishness", and unfortunately the way we are now has an awful lot to do with the past and invariably modern attitudes are shaped by those events. I also wholeheartedly agree with you that "the first barriers are always in the mind. If you can't overcome those, nothing will ever be done." Maybe I didn't express that clearly enough.
My attitude is possibly formed by my weariness at the same tired old crap being trotted out time and again, with the same tired old reactions, and I'm not directing this at you by the way, for fear of a few fecks being thrown into any further discussion!
In response to your comments about the ministers in the North Ards Peninsula being in favour of the Union I would add that several of them were executed during the United Irishmens Rebellion for exactly the opposite viewpoint. Even if some Irish speaking ministers did support the Union what difference does that make to you? Your comment illustrates exactly what I am trying to highlight. The implication is there that the knowledge of Irish is culturally invalidated by an individuals political beliefs. Perhaps if more Presbyterians spoke Irish as one of their mother tongues that would be one less divisive issue in present day Ireland.
The 16th Irish Division was indeed partly made up of Redmonds Volunteers but also contained a large contingent of men who joined for non political reasons, they were just doing what they thought was right. Joining the British Army up to 1922 was never considered strange and indeed still continues to this day. I personally have met with Irishmen from the Republic that have served in all three UK armed forces.
My view is that until we learn to celebrate what we have in common we will never mutually celebrate what is different.
One of the first steps (in my humble opinion) is to listen to and respect what any of us may consider opposing viewpoints. There are no rights and wrongs, there are only opinions.
My attitude is possibly formed by my weariness at the same tired old crap being trotted out time and again, with the same tired old reactions, and I'm not directing this at you by the way, for fear of a few fecks being thrown into any further discussion!
In response to your comments about the ministers in the North Ards Peninsula being in favour of the Union I would add that several of them were executed during the United Irishmens Rebellion for exactly the opposite viewpoint. Even if some Irish speaking ministers did support the Union what difference does that make to you? Your comment illustrates exactly what I am trying to highlight. The implication is there that the knowledge of Irish is culturally invalidated by an individuals political beliefs. Perhaps if more Presbyterians spoke Irish as one of their mother tongues that would be one less divisive issue in present day Ireland.
The 16th Irish Division was indeed partly made up of Redmonds Volunteers but also contained a large contingent of men who joined for non political reasons, they were just doing what they thought was right. Joining the British Army up to 1922 was never considered strange and indeed still continues to this day. I personally have met with Irishmen from the Republic that have served in all three UK armed forces.
My view is that until we learn to celebrate what we have in common we will never mutually celebrate what is different.
One of the first steps (in my humble opinion) is to listen to and respect what any of us may consider opposing viewpoints. There are no rights and wrongs, there are only opinions.
19 Mar 2007 @ 20:25
Comment from: AISI [Visitor]
Kensei
First of all don't put words in my mouth or suggest something I didn't.
You know dam well the mainland referred to is the UK mainland.
1 yes you are sectarian, but for the reasons you say.
2 agreed, but then you don't want to understand
3 the tricolour is not the flag of Northern Ireland therefore should not be flown as such.
4 then why flag the tri-colour in his name. The Republic of Ireland is only one of two countries on the island.
Unionism seems to me to be the only view that is frowned upon in this country.
First of all don't put words in my mouth or suggest something I didn't.
You know dam well the mainland referred to is the UK mainland.
1 yes you are sectarian, but for the reasons you say.
2 agreed, but then you don't want to understand
3 the tricolour is not the flag of Northern Ireland therefore should not be flown as such.
4 then why flag the tri-colour in his name. The Republic of Ireland is only one of two countries on the island.
Unionism seems to me to be the only view that is frowned upon in this country.
20 Mar 2007 @ 13:28
Comment from: kensei [Visitor]
"First of all don't put words in my mouth or suggest something I didn't."
More a general point exaggerated for emphasis. Don't have a cow, man.
"You know dam well the mainland referred to is the UK mainland."
Right. It would make more sense if we were on the Isle of Wight.
"1 yes you are sectarian, but for the reasons you say."
No, not liking the Union Jack does not make me sectarian.
"2 agreed, but then you don't want to understand"
No, I would like to understand. I could say the same about you and Nationalists too, though.
"3 the tricolour is not the flag of Northern Ireland therefore should not be flown as such."
I never suggested it should be flown as such.
"4 then why flag the tri-colour in his name. The Republic of Ireland is only one of two countries on the island."
Because the Republic is part of Ireland, of whom he is the patron saint. I should have thought that one obvious.
More a general point exaggerated for emphasis. Don't have a cow, man.
"You know dam well the mainland referred to is the UK mainland."
Right. It would make more sense if we were on the Isle of Wight.
"1 yes you are sectarian, but for the reasons you say."
No, not liking the Union Jack does not make me sectarian.
"2 agreed, but then you don't want to understand"
No, I would like to understand. I could say the same about you and Nationalists too, though.
"3 the tricolour is not the flag of Northern Ireland therefore should not be flown as such."
I never suggested it should be flown as such.
"4 then why flag the tri-colour in his name. The Republic of Ireland is only one of two countries on the island."
Because the Republic is part of Ireland, of whom he is the patron saint. I should have thought that one obvious.
20 Mar 2007 @ 19:10
Comment from: AISI [Visitor]
Are you acting stupid or is not an act.
Did I say not liking the Union Jack made you sectarian. then for the second time, stop putting words in my mouth.
I do understand the Irish Nationalists point of view, I just don't agree with it.
Did I say not liking the Union Jack made you sectarian. then for the second time, stop putting words in my mouth.
I do understand the Irish Nationalists point of view, I just don't agree with it.
21 Mar 2007 @ 10:39
Comment from: kensei [Visitor]
"Are you acting stupid or is not an act."
Dur.
"Did I say not liking the Union Jack made you sectarian. then for the second time, stop putting words in my mouth."
But apparently I am sectarian. What other reason you got?
"I do understand the Irish Nationalists point of view, I just don't agree with it."
But do you emphasize? Really?
Dur.
"Did I say not liking the Union Jack made you sectarian. then for the second time, stop putting words in my mouth."
But apparently I am sectarian. What other reason you got?
"I do understand the Irish Nationalists point of view, I just don't agree with it."
But do you emphasize? Really?
21 Mar 2007 @ 11:08
Another suggested flag for Northern Ireland.
It is the Ulster Banner/former flag of The Government Of Northern Ireland, only instead of the background being white, its background is the colour of the ancient Ulster Provincial Flag.
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3412/600pxflagofnorthernireliw6.png
It is the Ulster Banner/former flag of The Government Of Northern Ireland, only instead of the background being white, its background is the colour of the ancient Ulster Provincial Flag.
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3412/600pxflagofnorthernireliw6.png
08 Nov 2007 @ 16:05
LU - Something similar is suggested at Wikipedia and was reportedly mooted by the government around the time of the Good Friday Agreement. Only for some reason the red cross was fimbriated (I think that's the correct term) white, a la the St George's cross on the Union Jack. There was also no crown.
It's a decent effort, but I think I prefer the St Patrick's cross.
It's a decent effort, but I think I prefer the St Patrick's cross.
08 Nov 2007 @ 16:56
Comment from: Valdemar [Visitor] · http://bosslinux.in/Members/Flea
Sorry. Wit makes its own welcome, and levels all distinctions. No dignity, no learning, no force of character, can make any stand against good wit.
I am from Madagascar and also now am reading in English, give true I wrote the following sentence: "Flea market music and jim beloff offer an on line community for ukulele players, books on the ukulele, ukulele cds and information on the fluke ukulele.Advantage flea for cat medication is an excellent way to control the pesky critters in your home and on your cat."
Regards :-( Celandine.
I am from Madagascar and also now am reading in English, give true I wrote the following sentence: "Flea market music and jim beloff offer an on line community for ukulele players, books on the ukulele, ukulele cds and information on the fluke ukulele.Advantage flea for cat medication is an excellent way to control the pesky critters in your home and on your cat."
Regards :-( Celandine.
03 Jul 2009 @ 00:58
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