This is a tremendous victory for the IFA. it just goes to show that justice occasionally is done, even if the best result would have been ballbag Gibson in international limbo. Sure he might be in that anyway once he descends the league ladder a few rungs.

I would have liked to have seen Gibson come back into the fold after this, but he kind of made sure he could never do that and FIFA seem to have taken the path of least resistance. Still a great result though, and I'll happily give up Gibson in return for making sure the beggars stop this kind of abuse in future.

Do you think forcing nationalists to play for the North and ramming GSTQ down their throats is a good thing in this day and age?

Might have been a bit premature on this one Beano and Chekov, apparently other than Gibson, no final decision has been made, check Slugger.

So FIFA have decided that certain Irish citizens cannot play for the Irish State (as currently constituted)?

Hmmm. Methinks they are treading on dangerous ground there.

Reg
Not really a question of FIFA "now" deciding, citizenship whilst obviously essentia,l is not their sole criteria for turning out for a national side, "territoriality" is also crucial.

FIFA's rules (and I can't believe I've been sad enough to spend the time digging this up)

29
ANNEX 2
ELIGIBILITY TO PLAY FOR ASSOCIATION TEAMS FOR PLAYERS WHOSE
NATIONALITY ENTITLES THEM TO REPRESENT MORE THAN ONE ASSOCIATION

Article 1 Conditions
1. A player who, under the terms of Art. 15 of the Regulations Governing
the Application of the FIFA Statutes, is eligible to represent more
than one Association on account of his nationality, may play in an
international match for one of these Associations only if, in addition to
having the relevant nationality, he fulfi ls at least one of the following
conditions:

a) he was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
b ) his biological mother or biological father was born on the territory
of the relevant Association;
c) his grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the
relevant Association;
d) he has lived on the territory of the relevant Association for at least
two years without interruption.
2. Notwithstanding par. 1 of this article, Associations sharing a common
nationality may make an agreement under which item d) of par. 1 of
this article is deleted completely or amended to specify a longer time
limit. Such agreements must be lodged with and approved by FIFA

Vital word as I say is "territory" and technically Gibson should not be allowed to turn out for the ROI, but I suppose some compromise may have been sorted out to save face of the FAI

Dan, if a young man growing up in England "feels" more Pakistani than English it doesn't mean he can just decide to play for Pakistan. Same goes here.

In international support you're not supposed to get a choice of who to play for.

This isn't about whether or not players 'feel' British or Irish or both or neither. It's irrelevant. You're born in Northern Ireland you play for Northern Ireland.

ONeill, FIFA can't in good conscience do anything else. Anyway, why issue the caveat that any decision won't be applied retrospectively if they're not at least "minded" to support the IFA's stance?

Oh well you guys are really something think about this for a second now in the future you could have players from republican backrounds who feel absolutely nothing for you team and are playing for you because they have no other way.Thats cant be good for any teamand all that.Why would you want soemone who does not want to play from you team its just so very stupid of you and at the end of the day you show this has nothing to do with love of your team . Its a good thing for the people of doire who will have someone from their city on the team and i have never met anyone from doire who feels anything for your team.Oh and beano you do have a choice in nearly every other sport people from all backrounds in the north have been on the irish olympic team.Anyhow dont be so sure yet lads the FAI will probably appeal and nationalists are going to be more against you team more than ever

"Dan, if a young man growing up in England "feels" more Pakistani than English it doesn't mean he can just decide to play for Pakistan. Same goes here."

-if a young man growing up in England "feels" more Pakistani than English he cant just go out and get a pakistani passport.

-England and pakistan do not play as one team in around 90% of sports (cricket, hockey, rugby etc)

"In international support you're not supposed to get a choice of who to play for."

This is a choice of two, not lucky dip. Perhaps you should wonder why people would not want to play for their own "country", instead of forcing them to do so. This has set the IFA's progress over recent years back considerably.

ssh don't tell Fifa that half the population in Northern Ireland follow the republic, they might make us watch the games as well.

It was all going well, if u wanted to play for the republic u could, if u wanted to play for the North u could. The guy's personal opinion. Same goes for following which ever team u wanted.

But now this is going to make it worse, before yeah u wish them luck. But now it going to make us want Northern Ireland lose, maybe just watch the match to see them lose.

What a good way to bring both communities together eh?

But now this is going to make it worse, before yeah u wish them luck.

This measure (if it goes through) will not lose NI one supporter.
You say "nationalists" wished us good luck before? I'm very sceptical about that, if anything over the last five years, I'd say the amount of hatred apparent towards both the Northern Ireland team and its supporters has increased - so why should we give a flying about what those whom wish to see our demise think?

And if this measure goes through, then no one will be "forced" to play for N.ireland, they can still play for the Republic they will simply have to obey the FIFA eligibility rules that everyone else in the world has to.

Anyway, what makes Irish nationalists think they're so special that they are entitled to exemptions denied to Croatians living in Bosnia, Albanians living in Kosovo to mention but two examples.

"Anyway, what makes Irish nationalists think they're so special that they are entitled to exemptions denied to Croatians living in Bosnia, Albanians living in Kosovo to mention but two examples."

The mask slips. So citizens of the Irish State from Ireland cannot play for the Irish State? That is the same as ethnic minorities in Europe? Crikey!

If FIFA are going to be pedants regarding "territory" then I suppose we could argue that for any Irish citizens born in the north before 1998, Article 2 of the Irish Constitution then claimed the territory of the state to be the whole country.

Anyway, if FIFA are going to discriminate against certain Irish citizens then I'm sure it can be challenged legally.

For the record, I was delighted when the north beat England...unlike Billy Hutchenson!

Reg, you're mixing up government and politics with sport. The territory of the FAI, regardless of any illegal claims by the Dublin government, is the South/26 counties/Republic/Free State.

"So citizens of the Irish State from Ireland cannot play for the Irish State?"

The "Irish State" does not have a football team: the FAI has one.

Anyway, you specifically say "from Ireland", not "from the Irish State". This highlights that the two are not congruent.

There is no mask to slip, at least not on this side of the discussion. What you're actually referring to is a situation whereby citizens of Ireland, from Ireland, cannot play for the Republic of Ireland football team. They can however, play for the other Irish football team; the one which has jurisdiction for the territory in which they were born.

FIFA are not discriminating against anyone. The FAI's poaching strategy on the other hand was inherently sectarian.

"Reg, you're mixing up government and politics with sport. "

That's the point, Beano! This isn't just a sporting matter.

"What you're actually referring to is a situation whereby citizens of Ireland, from Ireland, cannot play for the Republic of Ireland football team."

Indeed. Citizens of a state unable to play football for the national team representing said state.

"FIFA are not discriminating against anyone."

I'm afraid they are.

"The FAI's poaching strategy on the other hand was inherently sectarian."

That's a tad harsh. One could argue they were merely spreading their net to cover all Irish citizens throughout the whole country.

This is not help the situation in Northern Ireland, let us freely express are Irish heritage without prejudice. If we want to play for the Republic why should yous care, ask yourselfs this

would u want some in the changing room, in the team there half heartly, I am sure it might damage the spirit of the North Teams.

Yous can freely express your British rights,
why not both of us live in a country where we can do both, afterall that whats the peace process is about, this is going to make us go one step backwards.

Afterall fif has ruled in favour of The IFA over the Darren Gibson case, how do you think Darren would have felt when walking in to te changing rooms, do you think he would have given his all, Nigel Wothingston could not acccept the case that he felt he was Irish and thus set out to ruin his international career.

This will not be the end of this situation, do you think that nationalist have come this far to be told by Fifa that infact we are not Irish, or that the good Friday areegrement means shit.

That's a tad harsh. One could argue they were merely spreading their net to cover all Irish citizens throughout the whole country

Not "all' Irish have been approached by the FAI in Northern Ireland.
Why do you think Gibson and Connor and not, for example, Jonny Evans or Kyle Lafferty were "approached" initially by the FAI do you think?

Whether it is their intent or not, the end-result is the same, they have used sectarian criteria in determining who they first approach.

And re "my mask", I posted up FIFA's eligibility rules earlier in the thread. Those are FIFA's rules not mine, my only point is that they should be applied consistently throughout the world.

"The FAI's poaching strategy on the other hand was inherently sectarian."

I am sure if David Healy wanted to play for the Republic, he would be welcomed with open arms. By all. So hardly sectarian.

So would George Best in his day. They only difference being that the North's greatest footballin son always wanted to play for an All-ireland team.

"always" Dan?

Or only after he became bitter about not getting to a World Cup (despite the fact he could have gone to '82 if he'd stayed off the booze).

Did the FAI approach Sir David or were they only interested in Catholic players?

Liam, there is nothing about playing for Northern Ireland that denies your right to "consider yourself and be accepted as Irish, British or both".

What about NI rugby players who would have no choice but to play for an all-Ireland rugby team?

The fact is that sports are organised by sports bodies and eligibility is based on the rules and jurisdictions of these bodies, not by governments.

The IRFU has the rugby jurisdiction for Ireland so NI born players, of whichever religious or political affiliation, play for the IRFU's side. Likewise for the IFA in the case of football in Northern Ireland.

"Why do you think Gibson and Connor and not, for example, Jonny Evans or Kyle Lafferty were "approached" initially by the FAI do you think?"

Greater likelihood of success?

Beano, the "mask" comment wasn't directed at you.

A bit off topic but did you support the ireland team at the world cup be a hones boy

"Greater likelihood of success?"

So, you agree that, unlike the IFA , "community background" is crucial in determining which players the FAI decide to approach from N:ireland?

Yeah I did, the case of the Rugby, yeah u are right there, but do you remember the case when UEFA tried to impose a ban on Northern Irelands must have British passports i.e some players not allowing Irish passport.?

What would happen if we tried to force some Irish Rugby players to give up their British passport lol, Ooo there would be outrage, we have never brought up this issue.

But maybe we should after all they are playing for an all Ireland team.

The case infact still remains, we have Irish Citizenship in the North and so therefore should be allowed to play/follow either team of choosing.

Do you personally agree with the rules Beano?

What about this scenario should all parties in Northern Ireland partition, west minister, Dublin that the current Fifa ruling should not be the case afterall Sport should not mix with Politics.

Would u really take it personal if some from the same city as you decided to play for the Republic, as if it make the particular person happy, then why begrudge?

Also you should not bring Religion to the Table, this case if not about Religion, it is bout a person wishes. The people of Ireland would be more than happy having a non Catholic, Mulism, Protestant playing for Ireland if they wanted to themselves

If not religion then how do the FAI determine who they will tap up? Is it just coincidence they seem to target Catholics?

"Do you personally agree with the rules Beano?"
Which rules specifically? I don't believe people should have a choice of which side to play for. That's what club teams are for.

"I don't believe people should have a choice of which side to play for. That's what club teams are for."

Exactly so why do, Northern Ireland players have a choice to play for Northern Ireland because after all, it is a state not a country.

what players like Darren Gibson are doing (playing for republic) is more legitmate than players who are playing for N.Ireland. As they are infact opting to play for a country full stop.... not a state within union.

Also ask yourself this question, why would an Irishman want to stand, and sing GSQ before everymatch?

We are Irish, proud, we will never want to follow Northern Ireland, it is not our state to follow. You can have your Northern Ireland team, sing ur songs, I will accept it, but you have got to accept that half of N.Ireland do want this, do not take it personally mate.

U follow N.ireland
some people don't, its a fact accept it

half of N.Ireland do want this, do not take it personally mate.


**do not**

oneill,

the section of fifa's rules that you quote is aimed at those who have a nationality which entitles them to play for more thatn one national association.. in fact it is primarily thus aimed at British nationaliaty which would on its own without the rules in the section you quote entitle anyone born in the uk to play for any of the four uk national associations. Irish nationality does NOT on the other hand prima facie entitle anyone to play for more than one association so imho you are quoting the wrong rules....

"So, you agree that, unlike the IFA , "community background" is crucial in determining which players the FAI decide to approach from N:ireland?"

I wouldn't say it's crucial. It's probably a good indicator. It's not like the FAI to be pragmatic, but it appears they have been in this case.

dub

I don't really want to get into a lengthy debate over this basically because I'm not lawyer....but I think it hinges on this part:

A player who, under the terms of Art. 15 of the Regulations Governing
the Application of the FIFA Statutes, is eligible to represent more
than one Association on account of his nationality, may play in an
international match for one of these Associations only if, in addition to
having the relevant nationality, he fulfi ls at least one of the following
conditions:

I think we'd agree that Gibson and Co are eligible to play for more than one association?

In which case what then also entitles them to play for NI (taking it as read that their Irish "nationality" qualifies them for the Republic)?
That's the crux of the matter (I think).

Reg
So that's Beano original point proven. Unlike NI, the ROI are making selection decisions on a basis other than footballing ability.

"Liam, there is nothing about playing for Northern Ireland that denies your right to "consider yourself and be accepted as Irish, British or both"."

Yes there is. I am not Northern Irish. I am Irish. The only citizenship I claim or want is Irish citizenship. Point me to the form to renounce British citizenship and I'll fill it in.

NI means fuck all to me. In fact give me tickets to the away stand and I'll happily cheer on their opponents every game for trying this one.

"What about NI rugby players who would have no choice but to play for an all-Ireland rugby team?"

What about them? You are welcome to start a campaign to partition the team.

This is irrelevant to this debate.

"The fact is that sports are organised by sports bodies and eligibility is based on the rules and jurisdictions of these bodies, not by governments."

The point of international competitions is to enable competition between countries. Otherwise there is little fucking point. Said bodies are also subject to European law, and I'd be shocked if there isn't mileage in legal challenges if this decision is made.

oneill

"So that's Beano original point proven. Unlike NI, the ROI are making selection decisions on a basis other than footballing ability."

Yes, the basis they the people the select have to be willing to turn out. You'll find NI don't select players you have indicated they won't play international football.

If you are suggest the FAI just call up every NI player and allow them to accept or decline publicly, well I'm all for that.

Yes, the basis they the people the select have to be willing to turn out.

No. Unless a player expressedly refuses to play for or retire from a national team, a manager can select any player which are available to him.Any player born in NI is (or has been) available to the FAI, despite that fact they have only targetted and selected players from one community.

You'll find NI don't select players you have indicated they won't play international football.

Of course not, but that's not the point (as I suspect you well know).
At the age of 15/16/17 a player is very unlikely to have indicated to the FAI that he doesn't want to play for them, so on what basis are the FAI deciding which players in NI to target?

Your argument reminds me of the one Rangers board used to imply pre Souness:
"We don't sign catholics because they don't want to play for us anyway".
Which may well have been true, but it didn't excuse what was still a sectarian selection policy.

f you are suggest the FAI just call up every NI player and allow them to accept or decline publicly, well I'm all for that

Well, at least it would be more honest that the underhand way they are going about things at the minute.

I'd even say they should make it retrospective and tell us exactly which players born in NI they've approached in the last 5 years. I'm sure the results would be illuminating.

what about the flag that the IFA adopt. That flag is not the flag of N.Ireland and was last used before 1972 when it was a unionist controlled government. The only official flag in N.Ireland is the union jack. It s very sad to see that the IFA is trying to stop individual players from making their own choice on which team in Ireland to play for. If they really want to get Nationalists or Republicans to play for N.Ireland, then there has to be a big change in thinking. A new flag has to be developed that both sides of N.Ireland will like and also The Song sung by the N.Ireland football team has to change ie God Save the Queen. What other part of the UK sings God Save the Queen at football matches. ONLY ENGLAND. The IFA has refused to change their policies and are sectarian in the outlook. By going to FiFa their are furhter polarising the two sides in N.Ireland instead of encouragement, they are trying to use force. What a joke. I am an Irishman from Belfast who also has many friends who support N.Ireland. It is about time the IFA became more professional, by making radical changes in the policies and stop trying to bring politics into football. It is a fact of life in N.Ireland that there are two communities, so get used to it, some people will want to play for the Republic of Ireland and some for the North, instead of banning this, try and encourage and show the catholic irish community in the North that the IFA is not sectarian, does not appeal to just one side of the community and maybe things might change. But their actions now Will only make things worse for them. IRELANDS CALL.

It s only right that each person living n the North should have the right to self-determination. People do not like being told what to do

I WILL Never Play for the North, why?

Because I would not be made welcome fact.

I would have to stand under a flag that is not even the official flag of N.Ireland. There is no official flag also fact. The obly flag is the union jack also fact.

I would also have to listen to God save the queen, even though Scotland and Wales dont have it as their national anthem.

What a joke the IFA are and always will be and yet I am now being told that I have to pay for them. HA bullsh@t

"It s only right that each person living n the North should have the right to self-determination."

Lol.

And it wasn't the IFA brought politics into this.

"I WILL Never Play for the North, why?"

Because you're shite at football? Because you're one of those bigots who would rather play for a 26-county partitionist side than the side formed of players from the footballing jurisdiction where you were born?

So Belfast Man, would you rather Northern Ireland played under the Union Flag instead? Because if so it kind of breaks down your "Scotland and Wales don't use God Save the Queen" argument. Personally I think the anthem's a bigger problem than the flag, but that's another debate.

Tell you what, instead of bitching about our flag and anthem, why not suggest an alternative. If you look here you'll find I have already done so on at least one of those issues.

No Beano of course I wouls not want to play under the Union Jack but , the Ulster Banner or whatever you want to call it, clearly shows on the flag the crown on top of the red hand, showing control and the subordination of the red hand of Ulster or the old Ulster irish people. Itis more english than irish. It is not a true and fair representation of the state or country (again whatever you want to call it). All during the troubles and since 1994 The IFA have made no attempt at facing the problem, they have never changed the flag used when they cleary know that the whole of N.Ireland did not support it, and they have never made any attempt and changing the anthem, during the troubles and since 1994. That is why they are sectarian, By ignoring the problem you make it worse. AND still God Save the Queen is played and Still the Fag is shown, and you wonder why all Nationalists or Republicans dont play for N.Ireland, answer me that Beano.

I have two suggestions

the first is to made an all Ireland football team. George Best the N.Ireland and United legend wanted it. The rugby and cricket have it. Adopt Irelands call and the flag currently used by the Rugby team. Ireland as a whole football team would do much better and I look foreward to the day when I can sing at an Ireland football match with unionists just like I do in the Six nations and in the Rugby world cup. However this is unlikely to happen as unionists and the working class protestants would riot if God Save the queen was not played and if they had to sit and sing with the south as well, maybe they are not ready for that which is understandable

2. Another option to keep the N.Ireland team and to publicly launch a competition for song writers to write a new song that represents all the community and to adopt a flag similar to the meaning that the tri colour has, the orange and green together or the Irish nationalist along with the Irish Unionist. Maybe," Oh Danny boy" should not be used because if you look up the history, it was written by an English Lawyer who never set foot in Ireland and was also named the ,"Londonderry Air" which had obviously got some political bias, with reference to the London part.


As for the darren Gibson case that is a joke, it is obvious that it will make things worse, let the individual person decide if he wants to play for the south or the north. That way both sides will be happy. N.Ireland as a football team will remain, so unionists happy, they can keep the song and the ulster banner, even happier and the Irish north can play for the south, keeping them happy

your design for the flag Beano is good, but were on earth is the Green. We need a flag that Strong Unionists and Strong Irish Nationalists can see their side represented. In many ways the Irish Tri colour would have been the best solution but for obvious reasons it would not be fair for us to use that. It is a tough one What about the red hand with the Six pointed star in front of the green white and orange

BM - I'm not even discussing an all-Ireland football team. Bad idea, and the fact you're using Rugby of all sports as an example just shows how out of touch you are.

And there are good reasons not to use Danny Boy, not just the plainly bigoted shite you've spouted above about the author being English.

I've already said above, this stuff about having a "right to choose" is absurd. There are people in NI who support England before Northern Ireland, should they then be allowed to play for the English side? No, you play for the team whose jurisdiction you fall under.

I totally agree that N.I. could use a new flag but that is not the IFA's job and the Ulster Banner is all they have. If you want a new flag for NI then petition your MLA. Don't hold your breath though, the Sinners have stated they won't accept any flag and I fear some of the Unionists are too died in the wool to accept any change.

Answer me this Belfast Man - do you think sport in Northern Ireland should be so polarised that we end up with a Protestant team and a Catholic team? Because that's what it seems like nationalists want. I certainly don't. There've always been a number of Catholics in the NI team but you don't hear about most of them particularly because they get on with the football like anyone else. Obviously there has been that Lennon incident which is inexcusable but it's not representative of the general experience.

I would like them to be comfortable with the flag and anthem they stand under, whatever that might be, but nobody's doing anything very constructive about it, least of all those who just bitch about it from the sidelines. I would suggest taking a quick look at the OurWeeCountry web site to see what the fans think. Many want a new anthem but hate Danny Boy.

Surely the point here is that the Republic of Ireland team is representative of the whole country - in that it has Irish citizens supporting it in pretty much every town in all 32 counties.

The NI team, which I accept was the original Irish association, now simply represents the unionist tradition. I still wish them well; but that's about it.

Any move to force Irish citizens to play for NI would be counterproductive to all sides.

Beano/O'Neill, the FAI's targeting of young players in the north is naturally aimed at players who are likely to take them up on their offer. It is probably indirectly "sectarian" in that this RESULTS in more Catholics accepting the offer. Hardly sinister.

Reg, the Republic is not a 32 county team. That (or more precisely their desire to be so) is the point here.

"Reg, the Republic is not a 32 county team."

It is "de facto" (with the exclusion of the unionist community).

just asking what your opinion of the brish olympic comitee saying that they will have a great britain football team for 2012, the Scottish, Welsh and IFA have all said no. Are the english led commitee trying to tell the world that britain is one conutry with one type of people, are N.Ireland Scotland and Wales going to lose their identity.

What do you think?

Belfast Man, see this (last paragraph) for my thoughts on the matter. If you'd like to respond please do so on that thread. Thanks.

"It is "de facto" (with the exclusion of the unionist community)."

No it isn't. Northern nationalist footballers almost uniformly play for Northern Ireland and now exclusively will.

Chekov,

It is in terms of support.

"...now exclusively will"

We'll see about that.

Reg, sounds like what you want is two sectarian teams mate. I'm happy that Northern Ireland (the North?) has and will continue to dissapoint little Irelanders like yourself.
Maybe you should try and support the original and best cross community Irish association instead, the IFA (rather than that other partitionist team) instead of living in the past with the likes of the little Englanders that live in Northern Ireland? Try supporting the team of the country of your birth if your from the beautiful 6 that is. Come on Reg the train is leavin without ya!!

I doubt that train is a TGV, more likely a NIR one. In that case I would take Bus Eireann, much quicker.

You're "now exclusively will" comment is just plain incorrect. A lot will still be eligible if the haye parents, grandparents from the 26, or have lived there.

I don't seem to have anywhere near as much of a problem supporting the North, if I turn on the TV after the playing of the anthems. The ball is now in the IFA's court to get rid of GSTQ asap.

I find the phrase little Irelander strange, considering we are trying to bring the two parts of the country together and you are, er, trying to keep them apart.

"Reg, sounds like what you want is two sectarian teams mate."

No, you fool. That is the way it is in terms of support; not the way I want it.

I would like to see a single Irish soccer team - unlike you. That's hardly the view of a "little Irelander".

NI isn't a country let alone "the country of my birth" so I'll give that train a miss thanks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/7082044.stm

Crikey lads! What's going on here?

It appears FIFA have common sense after all!

Beano, any thoughts????????

Are you going to change the title of this thread??

Answer you fellow ulsterman...

Already working on it Dan.