It was never to do with the police acceptability to the general public. The police, like in every other country in the world, were supported by the vast law-bidding public, whatever their religion. Sinn fein's constant demonisation of the previous police force and intimidation in their own community was the ONLY reason catholic recruitment was low.
As a matter of fact, I believe the public's support for
the police has now been reduced, NOT because of having more diverse religion's employed, but the due to the loss off contact with approachable officers who used to be trusted. Now, all we have, is an annonymous police service, with annonymous personel, who nobody really cares about....
The same tactic is being used by the IRA's buddies in Palistine. The constant demonisation on the international stage, of Israel and it's defensive actions against, "the wee defenseless Palistinians", also makes me sick.
Everyone in their repective countries, knows the truth, but its the miss-informed world opinion that holds weight.
Clinton was responsible for alot of pressure to grant sinn fein/ira many consessions way beyond what they ever should have received. This was again due to the propaganda being peddaled in the U.S.

Davy Mac, I have one word for your post. Bollocks. You say the majority of people supported the police, which may have been true. But the majority of Catholics, law abiding Catholics, didn't trust the RUC. Why? Because they were a sectarian police force.

You mention "the constant demonisation on the international stage, of Israel". The world doesn't need to demonise the Israelis, they do it well enough themselves.

And I would imagine that the perception of the Police has actually improved since the introduction of Patten. Maybe not in your bigoted wee world, but everywhere else. You strike me Davy as never having stepped into a nationalist area so do even begin to think that you can speak for us.

Seamus. Your angry outburst proves that when the truth be told, the usual rhetoric begins.
I lived and worked within republican,loyalist and nationalist areas for 27 years, and the only people who didn't trust the RUC where the law-breakers and the brainwashed within both communities.
As for sectarian, your views are sectarian as you only repeat and/or believe what you hear. No police officer EVER took a call, attended or indeed arrested anyone by first asking their religion. No police officer ever asked me for my religion. How many police officers have you spoken to that asked you for your religion before having any dealing with you?
I never was or have been bitter or bigotted, I always tried to see both sides of the arguement before making a judgment.
On your comment re- Israel, the wall keeping the fanatic bombers out of Israel, partially demolished by Palestinians recently, led to suicide bomb attacks resuming, which had ceased when the wall was intact. Oh! some hero's! using disabled people to bomb your enemies. Mind you did'nt another group use that tactic in the late 80's - early 90's, by chaining the victims to the vehicle seat, before sending them to their targets???
My reply is factual and based on more than one account.
Maybe if people started to think before they used the prepared comments/rhetoric, we could all start thinking positivly for a change.

No Davy Mac, your post is based on one side of many accounts.

The Police don't really need to ask my Religion (and if not Religion, definitely my Nationality), as it is sort of implied in my name. I've never met a Séamus from the Shankill. As for the sectarian nature of the Police, most of it was based against groups of people, not in an individual one on one situation. The Police batoning Civil Rights marchers, I for one, would consider that sectarian. The RUC and the B Specials burning down half of the Lower Falls, on the 14th August 1969, I would consider that sectarian. The Police raiding the Lower Falls to remove a Tri Colour from Sinn Féin Offices, I would find that sectarian.

“the only people who didn't trust the RUC where the law-breakers and the brainwashed within both communities.”

The only people who trusted the RUC where law-breaking touts, and the brainwashed from the Protestant community.

You also mention the PLO and Hamas’ tactic of suicide bombings, and the targeting of civilians. I would be the first to condemn these tactics. But let’s remember that if the largest military on the planet armed the Palestinians with Helicopters, Tanks, Nuclear bombs and all sorts of other high tech weaponry then the Palestinians wouldn’t have to resort to suicide bombings. But then again, even if Hamas used legitimate tactics, you would condemn them, like when they capture Israeli soldiers and held them as POWs, Zionist apologists all cried about them doing this legitimate act.

Hello again Seamus. Glad to see the historic "stories" continue to retold over and over.
I'll ask you again, did any police officer treat you differently after becoming aware of your religion? The answer will be "NO".
If memory serves me right, the 14th August 1969, the rioting in Derry was the date that the 1st Btln Prince of Wales Regiment where deployed on the streets of Derry to relieve the exhausted RUC after the Bogside riots and indeed the arrival of the troops WAS welcomed by BOTH police and rioters.
It was the stupid stories being exagerated on the Shankill Road, that reports of a republican uprising materialised and the "big hard men" from the Shankill, NOT POLICE, took the law into their own hands and burnt Several houses on the lower Falls to the ground. NOT as you say- Half of the Lower Falls", unless there was only 6 or 7 houses in that area.
The police on that night defintely over-reacted and fired on both communities, obviously not their finest hour, but nonetheless this was a new, dangerous & confusing situation, remember!! this was almost 40 years ago, (good God, we hadn't even been to the moon, let alone the advances in technology since). It's easy to sit comfortably in our armchairs and judge events using todays laws and rules.
On the 15 August 1969, troops deployed and began patrolling the areas between the Lower Falls and Shankill Road.
Apart from the fire damaged houses, ALL the Catholic and Protestant residents in those close together areas moved out and deeper into their own enclaves for safety.
On your Palestinian comment. I would'nt give these nutcases access to a TV remote contol let alone Nukes.
The case in England recently, where a man was Jailed on terrorism charges, played a home video, were the man had taught his 5 YR OLD son, to insult anyone other than believers of Islam, Heard the boy claim he wanted to kill all non believers and American's is proof these are dangerous people. Oh! that makes you and I a legitimate target.
Brainwashing people into blowing themselves and other people up is NOT acceptable in any religion.
The many different nationalities and religions killed in Bali, London, Madrid, New York etc, are you saying these are a cry for help?
Why didn't the terrorist's here not just drive the vehicles to their target themselves, instead of using innocent civilians as I mentioned previously. In fact, on one occassion, an innocent local woman was handed a shopping bag and ordered to deliver it to a police/army base in a border village in Fermanagh. The poor woman walked for almost 1 mile with this BOMB in her hand before almost collapsing at the station gate from shock.
The police didn't ask her what religion she was, NO, they came out of the station, threw the bomb at the side of the road and took the traumatised woman to safety and army medics treated her. Yea! some hero's. Just like the evil Shankill butchers who murdered Catholics like animals.
They all need taken out of society.

Um, that just shows your severe Islamophobia. To compare the Palestinians fight for their freedom with September 11 just shows your complete blinkered ideas. To blame all Muslims for the actions of Al-Qaeda would be like me blaming all Protestants for the actions of the Shankill butchers. The Palestinians have as much right to fight for their land and freedoms as any of us do.

Um, and to think that there were only three houses burnt by the loyalist/police, shows a complete idiocy on your part. They burned down an entire street for Christ sakes, plus huge amount more. And it is a very well accepted fact that the B-Men and probably the RUC helped. Not an overreaction, but a complete sectarian attack on the Lower Falls. This was one of the massive reasons the B Specials where disbanded less than a year after.

The events of August 1969 were the major reason that the Police were given almost no support in Catholic areas. These aren’t “stories” as you put it. These are hard, cold facts. I have the ability to know that some of what the IRA did was wrong, like the examples you have pointed out. You seem to have it ingrained in you that the Police could do no wrong.

Seamus. Nowhere on my last text did I blame all Muslims for the attacks on the west. However did you see news reports of of children handing out food to fellow Palestinians after a murderous suicide attack on Israeli people?
Did you see the child, NO MORE THAN 7, firing a AK into the air also? I saw only jubilation by thousands.....
Did you see the celebrations on TV news today, after the mulitple murder of Israeli students during RELIGION classes?
people seem to ignore the realities. Yasser Arafat was a coniving little runt who played the "oppressed people" propaganda card and as you and I know, you can't defeat a liar. The Palestinians are NOT fighting for their land, they are fighting to wipe from the face of the earth, all Jewish people and anyone else who disagree with their views, under the banner of "its our land".
- August 69 - There was indeed more than 3 houses burnt that night by the Thugs from the Shankill, however you fail to be aware of another fact. The rest of the houses in that street were burnt by the departing occupants or republican's to stop any protestants taking possession. I know, as my uncle was one of those people who had to move!!
In fact down the Grosvenor Road, that same night Protestant AND Catholic families moved out of the houses in Malt St, and Arundle ST. and didn't even get time to remove all their furniture. One family had some furniture on the back of a flatbed lorry, with two men holding it with their bare hands. On turning towards Lesson St. some furniture fell from the lorry. as the owner jumped down a armed man came out of the crowd and stated, "What falls is ours". This was a Catholic family mistaken for Protestants but goes to show what the times were like then and everyone was suspect.
You must be joking if you believe I think the RUC were blameless. You are quite correct, there was a large
contingent of biggotted officers in the B Specials. In fact on drawing up plans for 'internment', a few officers gave false details to the Military, of some Catholics who they had dislike of, for whatever reason and wished to exact revenge. One case where a Catholic farmer was bidding for farmland which was for sale. A police friend of the other bidder, forwarded the Catholic bidders name for internment so as to leave his buddy free to be the only bidder.
The 'B' Specials were disbanded within the year but on the advice of the British Government, but NOT due to the actions of the 14th August, simply as they were incapable of controlling the problems that were arisiing daily and also due to doubts about some members impartiality.
Lets just try to remember what I said earlier This was almost 40 years ago, before colour TV's, pocket calculators when the main car of the day was a Ford Zephyer. Long before the safeguards that exist today, from the Data protection act, human rights, anti-religious legislation and ethnic minority laws. Stop judging 40 yr old faults with todays rulings, in fact where does it stop, digging up Henry V111 and prosecute him for murder and domestic abuse?

Just because it was 40 years ago does not excuse the sectarianism of the Police and the B Specials.

You also mention the murder of the 8 students in Jerusalem. As I pointed out, I condemn the murder of any civilians. Lets just remember that in the last week Israel has murdered 120 people, the majority of which were civilians. How many pictures of their funerals were taken? How many interviews? Did it show the Israeli reaction to their army's murder of 120 people in a single week? No it didn't. Because the western media is heavily biased against the Palestinian people.

Seamus. I hope your not saying that the people who disliked/hated the actions of the police in 1969, are right to believe that the police were all the same to this present day?
Is this the same person who wrongly accused me of Islamophobia? I wonder if there is such a word as RUCOPHOBIA??? This is the problem, everyone holds grudges, even 40 years on. These fester away in their heads
growing, snowballing and inevitably lead to automatic hatred without reason.
If you check out SKY News AND Fox News (U.S. based,) both covered these events you spoke of. I believe the Israeli actions are dis-proportionate to the threat, with this adding to the anger of the Palestinians. The Israeli's need to wise up and understand that the extreme actions they take is only heightening the fear that the Propaganda being spewed
is
might actually be correct.

No, but that fear and hatred of the Police meant something radically different, like the McBride principles, needed to be carried out to ensure nationalist confidence in the Police.

While most legitimate news stations covered the news of the 120 people murder by the Israelis, it wasn't covered with the same hysteria that the murder of the 8 students was. People need to stop looking at the Israelis and the Palestinians in a different light. An Israeli soldier killing a Palestinian civilian is just as wrong as a Palestinian militant/freedom fighter/terrorist killing an Israeli civilian. The west needs to understand that fact.

Seamus. Now we're getting somewhere. The McBride principles you mention were not revolutionary ideas. In fact one was asking of more Catholics to consider a career in the police service. Note the word, MORE!! The police was never a totally protestant police force, 'McBride' request was ONLY answered, once the fear of intimidation was reluctantly removed by the IRA and Sinn Fein. That is the ONLY reason we now have a greater representation, (percentage) in the police service.
The Israeli army need reigned in and made accountable for their over-reactions. However, no-one seems to remind the fanatics that they must act in the same manner.
They don't want a settlement, they want the removal of all Jews, pure and simple. If an agreement was within sight, their propaganda machine would kick into overdrive to spread their vile lies in an attempt to discredit, spread fear or sway international opinion in their favour simply to further their aims.
Call them whatever you want- but anyone who goes out to deliberately to kill, injure and destroy are MURDERERS.

I disagree that the Palestinians don't want a settlement. After being elected into office, Hamas offered a settlement, a ceasefire in return for the Gaza strip, the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Hamas then went on a unilateral ceasefire and only reneged on that ceasefire 10 months later after an Israeli gunboat shelled a beach. The problem is that violence either side fuels violence from the other. Palestinians aren't going to stop fighting until the Israelis stop fight. Israel isn't going to stop fighting until the Palestinians stopped fighting, so there is an endless cycle of tit for tat violence, mostly, on both sides, against civilians.

About the McBride Principles, Point 9 states "The appointment of a senior management staff member to oversee the company's affirmative action efforts and the setting up of timetables to carry out affirmative action principles." This shows that the major way the McBride principles are carried out is the use of affirmative action, or positive discrimination. Most companies in the North use this type of action, mostly in an attempt to increase the number of women into their companies.

I disagree that the principle reason that Catholics didn't join the Police in huge numbers was because of Sinn Féin or the IRA. As I have pointed out, events in the last 40 years, massively eroded Catholics perception of the Police, so many Catholics didn't join the police, because they didn't like the Police.

"The Police raiding the Lower Falls to remove a Tri Colour from Sinn Féin Offices, I would find that sectarian"

Sectarian ????

An attack on free speech ? -Arguably
Poor usage of police resorces ? -Probably
Sectarian ? -Well unless the Shinners are some kind of cult......

Sectarian, as in attacks one sector of the community. Irish nationalists are a sector of the community, thus an attack on Irish nationalism is a sectarian attack.

Leaving aside the fact that your definition of "sectarian" doesnt really fit in with most peoples understanding of the term (or any definition of dictionary.com). Since when has an attack on Sinn Fein amounted to an attack on Irish nationalism ?

Most Irish nationalists have no time for the Shinners or their hijacking of the tricolour.

It wasn't just an attack on Sinn Féin. It was an attack to remove a Tricolour from the Falls Road. Regardless of who owned, the Stoops, the Shinners or a private citizen, to attack a premises simply to remove the Irish tricolour is a sectarian act.

That seamus is a total idiot. Its like talking to Gerry Kelly, nothing but lies and the same tired old rhetoric they have been regurgitating for the past 400 years. He just characterises the brainwashed pathetic views of your average sinn fein scum

Glad to see I'm starting to get personal rants against me.

"nothing but lies and the same tired old rhetoric they have been regurgitating for the past 400 years."

Firstly, I want to know what lies we have been telling. Then I also want to know where the whole 400 years. We have only been claiming that the RUC and the B Men where sectarian for about the last 80 years. And believe me, if we want to go down that road, we can actually complain about the last 800 years, rather than just the last 400 years.

It would also be much more constructive to the debate if you where to actually make a real point rather than come here and throw around petty insults.

So going by your definition Seamus all police forces are inheriently sectarian since Criminals are a section of the Community.

Um, no.

Criminals aren't a section of the community. Normally things that make people a section of the community are race, gender, religion, nationality, sexual orientation, not legal status.

Well OK then. In the English-Language-according-to-Seamus

Do Shinners constitute a race, a gender, a religion, a nationality or a sexual orientation ?

No, Sinn Féin is a political party. Irish constitute a nationality and Catholic constitutes a religion.

Can I suggest Davy Mac & Seamus have a read at "The Fateful Split" by Chris Ryder.
EG: Page 257 refers to Oath of Office introduced in 1836 and carried on into the Constabulary Act (N I) 1922.
For many years the N I Gov't required the oath to be sworn by all kinds of public servants, road sweepers, dustman etc in the clear hope that it would deter Catholics from applying for public employment.
The distrust of the RUC was there from day one, to what extent I'm not sure but, here's the crunch, over the next 70+ years it increased greatly, .... Chris Ryder is an accepted authority on RUC and he gives chapter & verse on how & why theis distrust grew & grew.

You lot are the reason I hate Northern Ireland!

this is quite sad... your all still living in the past. just get over it as harsh as it sounds because if we dont then this country will never be right again, if it was ever right in the first place...

and i agree with dave this is why i hate this shithole country with its shit government and nearly all you narrow minded bastards

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