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That 11 "Super Council" Deal
by beano 
on 14 Mar 2008 at 16:23. Categories: Northern Ireland, Local Government, Politics, Devolved Government 
11 "Super Councils" - the changing face of local government in Northern Ireland
Things have been a bit slow at EU here over the last couple of days. It's awful when real life gets in the way of blogging. Anyway, apparently a "deal" has been done on the councils. We've been spared the silly idea of a reduction to 7 super councils (which Sinn Fein alone wanted) and instead we're getting 11 councils which, as far as I can tell, nobody wanted (except maybe the DUP).
It seems like the areas proposed under the deal would see Newtownabbey and Carrick spared the indignity of joining up with Lisburn (as well as the massive potential expense of funding Lagan Valley's white elephant), although they look like being split from each other too, which is odd considering it's nearly impossible to spot the boundary. Of course there's no shift in Belfast because any expansion would probably bring in a net increase in the number of Prods in Belfast, and that would never do, not matter how much it makes sense in terms of planning, transport etc.
Follow up:
In the north west Limavady will be absorbed into what seems like being a predominantly Unionist council (I think - more balanced anyway), which may reassure those who were rightly outraged over the recent "google this guy to see if he offends us" antics of Limavady councillors, though it leaves the minority unionists in Londonderry still looking even more marginalised after being lumped in with strongly nationalist Strabane (there probably wasn't much could be done about that though).
Whatever way they divvied the country up there were going to be winners and losers, so at the end of the day it's getting harder and harder to get that excited over the whole affair.
In summary the 11 areas (the 'names' are made up by me) are:
- Belfast - as is
- South-west Antrim - Newtownabbey & Antrim
- Mid-Antrim - Ballymena, Larne, Carrickfergus
- North Coast - Limavady, Coleraine, Ballymoney, Moyle
- Londonderry & Strabane
- Fermanagh & Omagh
- Mid-Ulster - Cookstown, Dungannon, Magherafelt
- Armagh, Craigavon, Banbridge
- South Down, Newry & Mourne
- Lisburn & Castlereagh
- North Down & Ards
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24 comments
Comment from: Chekov [Visitor] · http://threethousandversts.blogspot.com
We knew that the number of councils had to be trimmed down, but this exacerbates the east / west split to too great an extent. The gerrymandering of Belfast is also unacceptable.
Off subject Beano have you seen Feeney's latest? Unbelievable, even by his standards.
Off subject Beano have you seen Feeney's latest? Unbelievable, even by his standards.
14 Mar 2008 @ 17:09
I think it will be 4 Nationalist Councils, 4 Unionist Councils, Belfast will be hung, but leaning towards Nationalists, while the Upper Bann/Armagh concoction will be Unionist, unless there is a strong growth for the Alliance Party. The "North Coast" council could possibly be hung, as their isn't that massive of a Unionist majority in that council, and there is an ever growing Alliance vote there as well.
14 Mar 2008 @ 17:31
Chekov, I got the jist from Chris Gaskin. Wouldn't really expect any better though.
Do you think 15 councils really would have been much better then? I suppose it might have meant less people finding themselves in the minority - although that would suggest more homogeneous councils (and more of a carve up).
14 Mar 2008 @ 18:52
There is no way to do the councils in the North without it being accused of being a sectarian carve-up. West of the Bann, currently there is only two councils that aren't controlled by Nationalists. Theses are Coleraine (a unionist council), and Armagh (a "hung" council). East of the Bann, there are is only three councils that aren't controlled by Unionists. Belfast (a "hung council), Down and Moyle (Both Nationalist Councils). Of those five councils, only Armagh and Moyle are changing hands, becoming parts of Unionist councils, so there can't really be the arguments of a sectarian carve-up, as most of the councils are retaining the same community control. This is just casual moaning by the Ulster Unionists as they didn't get there way and are becoming increasingly powerless in the Executive.
14 Mar 2008 @ 23:06
Comment from: Ignited [Visitor] · http://www.redemptionsson.blogspot.com
The 11 vs 15 argument I don't believe makes any real difference. Unfortunately I am yet to be convinced by the UUPs argument over both the 15 model and the issue of Belfast gerrymandering. I believe neither to be the most compelling reasons against Arlene's announcement.
I would instead focus on the power of the council and the relevance of 108 MLAs sitting at Stormont.
Some interesting amalgamations at any rate - the Antrim/Newtonabbey and Larne/Ballymena/Carrickfergus leap out at me. I think someone said it would have made more sense Antrim/Ballymena and I'd have to agree there.
I would instead focus on the power of the council and the relevance of 108 MLAs sitting at Stormont.
Some interesting amalgamations at any rate - the Antrim/Newtonabbey and Larne/Ballymena/Carrickfergus leap out at me. I think someone said it would have made more sense Antrim/Ballymena and I'd have to agree there.
14 Mar 2008 @ 23:35
The only argument is that most of Newtownabbey and Antrim Council share a Westminster and Assembly border. The Ballymena and Larne thing is sort of ridiculus, to say that the people in Larne look to Ballymena as their centre is a joke.
14 Mar 2008 @ 23:46
I can't believe I'm saying this but you may have something of a point there Seamus.
I don't know how the numbers work out but Newtownabbey-Carrick might have made more sense (though not sure if folk in Islandmagee would agree) and Ballymena Antrim. Don't know where Larne would fit in though.
To be honest I'm not even convinced basing the new boundaries on the old was necessarily a good place to start.
I don't know how the numbers work out but Newtownabbey-Carrick might have made more sense (though not sure if folk in Islandmagee would agree) and Ballymena Antrim. Don't know where Larne would fit in though.
To be honest I'm not even convinced basing the new boundaries on the old was necessarily a good place to start.
15 Mar 2008 @ 00:10
People don't like change, so basing the new boundaries on the old ones is a lesser change than the completely new ones. It will make the transition easier. The problem is that many of the councils have nothing to tie them together. To say that Portadown, Lurgan and Banbridge all look to Armagh is idiotic, to say that Crossmaglen and Downpatrick are similar is equally strange. And something to that nature can be said about almost all the councils. I think basing the new councils on old boundaries would be an easier transition, but I think they amalgamated all the wrong councils. Some of them are so geographically diverse that it is just plain stupid.
15 Mar 2008 @ 00:20
Comment from: Da [Visitor]
A bit naive maybe but would 6 county councils (literally) and one for Belfast not be so much easier?
No gerrymandering, no manipulation just old boundaries that don't mean much except that they have been around for a long time.
Numerically the populous of each might vary a bit but so what?
No gerrymandering, no manipulation just old boundaries that don't mean much except that they have been around for a long time.
Numerically the populous of each might vary a bit but so what?
15 Mar 2008 @ 03:18
Comment from: Mike [Visitor]
Or if one wanted to be really radical remove a layer of government by doing away with councils altogether.
Lets face it by UK standards a 1.7 (+/-) million population would constiture a pretty small borough and Whether you (or I) like it or not bin collection and leisure centres (about the only useful things councils actually do around here) will sooner or later be privatised reducing your local council to being a building where wannabee politicians gather to argue about flags, debate pointless (although in the case of Ballymena occasionally hilarious) resolutions and plan regular junkets at ratepayers expense.
Although (for some reason) it would be a shame to see the town hall in Carrickfergus going.
Lets face it by UK standards a 1.7 (+/-) million population would constiture a pretty small borough and Whether you (or I) like it or not bin collection and leisure centres (about the only useful things councils actually do around here) will sooner or later be privatised reducing your local council to being a building where wannabee politicians gather to argue about flags, debate pointless (although in the case of Ballymena occasionally hilarious) resolutions and plan regular junkets at ratepayers expense.
Although (for some reason) it would be a shame to see the town hall in Carrickfergus going.
15 Mar 2008 @ 11:34
Comment from: Da [Visitor]
Wouldn't argue too much with that one either, Mike.
When we have one MLA to less than 2,000 of the electorate maybe they could earn their salary and perks by extending their role to cover bins and leisure centres.
When we have one MLA to less than 2,000 of the electorate maybe they could earn their salary and perks by extending their role to cover bins and leisure centres.
17 Mar 2008 @ 20:15
Comment from: Da [Visitor]
Sorry! My mistake, should have read less than 10,000 (not 2,000). The principal is unchanged, though. Too many people with too little to do.
17 Mar 2008 @ 20:36
I agree that the reform of the councils, and the slashing of the number of councils and councillors, should be replicated at Stormont, with I think cutting the number of MLAs elected in each constituency to 4 or 5. The only problem with massively cutting the number of elected representatives, it cuts the diversity of the representation. The North has a smaller population than the rest of the UK but it also has a much more diverse population and sometimes that requires a few more councillors here or there so that small minorities can have their voices heard. That is ultimately what democracy is all about.
17 Mar 2008 @ 21:27
Just wanted to point out one little thing Beano. With regards to the Foyle, [Derry and Strabane], you stated that unionists in Derry will be even more marginilised. If I have my numbers right, Derry City Council is 75.37% Catholic, while this new Foyle Council will be 72.75% Catholic. The new council will actually be 2.87% more Protestant, so there not exactly being more marginilised.
19 Mar 2008 @ 12:41
Fair enough Seamus, I suppose it's just the image I have of Strabane (having had the misfortune of meeting one or two of its delinquent sons) of being devoid of anything but CIRA nutters. Silly really. Mea culpa.
19 Mar 2008 @ 12:54
Comment from: Da [Visitor]
I hadn't necessarily looked to remove the councils AND reduce the number of MLAs, Seamus.
I was thinking more along the lines of giving the existing MLAs more work to do.
I wouldn't really agree that Northern Ireland has a more diverse population than the rest of the UK when you consider the ethnic make up of much of England in particular. I do agree, though, that it is important that minorities are heard - all the while bearing in mind their numbers in relation to the entire populous.
I don't think it is feasible that every minority can have an elected representative - possibly they need someone tasked to speak for them at Stormont when the need arises - and ideally not from the "are you an orange or a green hindu" lobby.
I was thinking more along the lines of giving the existing MLAs more work to do.
I wouldn't really agree that Northern Ireland has a more diverse population than the rest of the UK when you consider the ethnic make up of much of England in particular. I do agree, though, that it is important that minorities are heard - all the while bearing in mind their numbers in relation to the entire populous.
I don't think it is feasible that every minority can have an elected representative - possibly they need someone tasked to speak for them at Stormont when the need arises - and ideally not from the "are you an orange or a green hindu" lobby.
19 Mar 2008 @ 22:28
When I think of the diversity of the make up of Northern Ireland, I wasn't just hinting at the ethnic make-up, which is growing ever diverse. In terms of culture, nationality, religion, political opinion, and some many other things, the North is in my opinion, more diverse.
"I was thinking more along the lines of giving the existing MLAs more work to do."
What, like the devolution of Policing and Justice [wink, wink, nudge, nudge]?
"I was thinking more along the lines of giving the existing MLAs more work to do."
What, like the devolution of Policing and Justice [wink, wink, nudge, nudge]?
19 Mar 2008 @ 23:08
Comment from: Mike [Visitor]
"You stated that unionists in Derry will be even more marginilised ...... The new council will actually be 2.87% more Protestant, so there not exactly being more marginilised"
Who said anything about Protestants ? I thought we were talking about Unionists ???
Who said anything about Protestants ? I thought we were talking about Unionists ???
20 Mar 2008 @ 22:59
Um, Mike, I'm not sure if anyone has clued you in to the Politics here, but generally speaking, Protestants tend to be Unionist, while Catholics tend to be Nationalist. Everyone knows that and when people use the two terms interchangeably, most people, who aren't completely retarded, know what they are saying. Stop trying to be clever, you're only making a dick of yourself.
20 Mar 2008 @ 23:05
Comment from: Mike [Visitor]
Unionist Catholics and Nationalist Protestants are hardly completely unknown species all the same. Even if they are probably outnumbered by "dont give a fiddlers anywhich way" of either persuasion.
So while “most people who aren't completely retarded” might “know what they are saying”. Most people who aren't completely retarded know it’s a pile of steaming horse manure.
And besides what do Atheists/Jews/Muslims/Hindus/Agnostics/Gay Buddhist Gypsies/etc "tend" to be ?
So while “most people who aren't completely retarded” might “know what they are saying”. Most people who aren't completely retarded know it’s a pile of steaming horse manure.
And besides what do Atheists/Jews/Muslims/Hindus/Agnostics/Gay Buddhist Gypsies/etc "tend" to be ?
20 Mar 2008 @ 23:49
They tend to be a very, very small section of the community. It is estimated that Protestants and Catholics who cross their political divide, while not completely unknown, only happen to make up about 2 or 3% of the population. For Demographics, which are fairly well backed up in the Elections, people normally quote the % of Protestants as Unionist, and the % of Catholics as Nationalist. There is a reason that the areas with the highest % of Catholics are dominated by Nationalist like West Belfast which is 82.68% Catholic elects 6 Nationalists, while East Belfast, which is 84.62% Protestant elected 5 Unionists and a watered down Unionist.
21 Mar 2008 @ 01:32
"And besides what do Atheists/Jews/Muslims/Hindus/Agnostics/Gay Buddhist Gypsies/etc "tend" to be ?"
I don't know why you listed Gay there, but for the rest, the % Catholic or Protestant is this whole perceived Community background that is used in the Census, so Catholics or Protestants who no longer practice their faith are still giving a community background, so an Atheist from the Falls Road, raised in a Catholic household, is considered to be from the Catholic community. The rest of them make up the 5% or so Others.
I don't know why you listed Gay there, but for the rest, the % Catholic or Protestant is this whole perceived Community background that is used in the Census, so Catholics or Protestants who no longer practice their faith are still giving a community background, so an Atheist from the Falls Road, raised in a Catholic household, is considered to be from the Catholic community. The rest of them make up the 5% or so Others.
21 Mar 2008 @ 01:36
Comment from: Mike [Visitor]
Atheists dont "practice their faith" because by definition they have no faith to practice. The Census agency can "percieve" and "consider" all they like but those of us who live in the real world know that the perceptions of those who ask atheists whether or not the God he or she doesnt believe in is represented by the pope should not be taken seriously. In any case anyone with a bit of sense will decline to answer the religion/race questions.
As for dismissng the 3% here or 5% there (figures presumably sourced from the top of your own head) have you ever heard of the concept of "balance of power" ? It also may have escaped your attention that there is an increacing population of individuals from outside of Northern Ireland now living here with no particular axe to grind regarding our 400 year old ethnic squabble. Which "community background" does one pigenhole these individuals into ?
As for dismissng the 3% here or 5% there (figures presumably sourced from the top of your own head) have you ever heard of the concept of "balance of power" ? It also may have escaped your attention that there is an increacing population of individuals from outside of Northern Ireland now living here with no particular axe to grind regarding our 400 year old ethnic squabble. Which "community background" does one pigenhole these individuals into ?
21 Mar 2008 @ 15:44
If there where that many of them then it would appear on the census. When it comes to community background, it is about background. B.A.C.K.G.R.O.U.N.D. It is a simple way of defining people. Rightly or wrongly, that is how it is done. And these demographic figures of percieved community background are then further backed up in the Elections. According to the Census, which most people accept as being fairly accurate, 3.1% of the Population didn't have either a Catholic or Protestant background. [14.1% of the Population consider themselves not to be practicing Catholics or Protestants.]
Now, 43.8% of the population are fro ma Catholic Background, and 41.4% of the voters voted for either Sinn Féin or the SDLP. Not much of a difference there. There is a larger discrepincy in the Protestant vote, as parties like the Alliance Party tend to do better in Protestant areas.
Now, 43.8% of the population are fro ma Catholic Background, and 41.4% of the voters voted for either Sinn Féin or the SDLP. Not much of a difference there. There is a larger discrepincy in the Protestant vote, as parties like the Alliance Party tend to do better in Protestant areas.
21 Mar 2008 @ 17:23
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