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"Love Ulster" Hate-Fest Embarrasses All
You're probably aware about a new "campaign" launched yesterday by the Shankill Mirror. It was called a campaign, but from what I can see it's really just a lot of hype surrounding the new "Special Ulster Edition" of the Shankill Mirror.
The campaign consists of the paper itself and the website at LoveUlster.com - which I'll get into later. One, apparently "in the know," poster had this to say about the Shankill Mirror's Ulster Edition:
Following its official launch this morning (Monday 29th Aug), 200,000 copies of the paper will be distributed around Northern Ireland this week, in order to encourage province-wide debate.
Province-wide debate? They're having a laugh. Flicking through the paper it seems nothing more than an attempt at scaremongering, encouraging 'loyalists' to impersonate the worst trait's of the infamous Sinn Fein/IRA propaganda machine with insightful headlines such as "We're All Victims". Yes, because one thing Ulster needs is more people with inflated victimhood mentalities.
Follow up:
The paper claims to want to encourage debate, but in reality all it is is a history of IRA atrocities on a par with Sinn Fein's one-sided and deliberately misleading 'dossier' of "Unionist Death Squad Attacks" or whatever they called it. It may be a useful (although obviously one-sided) account of history, but to try to dress it up as anything else is laughable. It really did make me wonder if the paper was circulated simply to scare unionist/loyalist people and to therefore justify the continuance of the loyalist paramilitary gangsters that blight our nation.
The website LoveUlster.com is no better. Again, supposedly a forum for debate, it ends up with prepubescent adolescent (probably spotty) teenage 'loyalist' thickos "arguing" with troublemaking republican trolls. I spent some time yesterday trying to generate serious discussion, and felt like I was getting somewhere for a while, but felt a bit like King Canute by the end of it.
Some sample posts follow:
"what do u call a fish shop bomb in the shankhill????
the good old days...."
bugmenot in 'Have your say'
"i would like to see a ulster still british but also free from all the filthy paki scum etc who will be as much a threat as the ira are"
white ulster in 'What future would you like to see for Ulster?'
"Keep ulster british its plain and simple thats my few and im proud of it.never surrender keep ure heads high and stand united as protestants, on our goal which we will achieve and that is to always have the rite to celbrate the culture and the hertitage of what we r and who we r...... "
Cluan Place in 'What future would you like to see for Ulster?'
"Unite and fight, cause Ulster is right."
Fusilier in 'Have your say'
I could go on but I won't - and I swear I'm not making this up. What can I say, it was a nice idea, badly executed. I started Everything Ulster as a forum for debate on Unionist views, and despite a dodgy start seem to have got some varied (and appreciated) opinions here. I had contemplated adding a forum at one stage where people could talk about their own topics but having seen how ignorant, stupid, moronic f**king INBRED 'loyalists' flock like sheep to anything with the word Ulster in it, I may pass. (One of the posters, the best part of whom clearly ran down his mother's leg, thought that since I said I didn't want the site to go down the sectarian hatred route like so many loyalist sites, I must be a republican!)
I had a similar experience on Calton Radio, but thought that being a new site, Love Ulster might be different. Unfortunately, sectarian hatred and bigotry is more prevalent on the internet than sites like EU and Slugger would have you believe.
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42 comments, 1 trackback
Comment from: David N [Visitor] · http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ulsternation/
I've got a lot of time for the Shankill Mirror as a newspaper, but launching an (apparently) unmoderated forum about Northern Ireland politics and publicising it so widely, is madness.
You coundn't make up some of the posts on there.
"Random Poll - Do you like Fen1ans?" (sic)
With the options:
"1) No.
2) No. They're smelly and don't wash"
I'm praying that some of the posts are wind ups. If not I despair...
You coundn't make up some of the posts on there.
"Random Poll - Do you like Fen1ans?" (sic)
With the options:
"1) No.
2) No. They're smelly and don't wash"
I'm praying that some of the posts are wind ups. If not I despair...
30 Aug 2005 @ 19:16
" I've got a lot of time for the Shankill Mirror as a newspaper, "
David I've never read the paper before, but this "special Ulster edition" seems dodgy. Remebering the victims is one thing, in fact recording the events is all well and good, but I'm suspicious of the motives of anyone who waits til now, to use such horrid acts as some sort of political tool.
"I'm praying that some of the posts are wind ups. If not I despair..."
There are one or two posters with names like "I Love Ulster" and "David Tremble" who are taking the piss. However I'm sad to say most posters appear to be genuine and the level of paranoia among the "loyalist" posters is awful.
David I've never read the paper before, but this "special Ulster edition" seems dodgy. Remebering the victims is one thing, in fact recording the events is all well and good, but I'm suspicious of the motives of anyone who waits til now, to use such horrid acts as some sort of political tool.
"I'm praying that some of the posts are wind ups. If not I despair..."
There are one or two posters with names like "I Love Ulster" and "David Tremble" who are taking the piss. However I'm sad to say most posters appear to be genuine and the level of paranoia among the "loyalist" posters is awful.
30 Aug 2005 @ 19:32
Comment from: Paul [Visitor] · http://www.nimagyar.blogspot.com
Sorry Beano, I copied the description "hatefest" from you but I couldn't think of a better way to describe some of the threads on there.
The whole thing is a pathetic shambles, where the one-sided version of victimhood is a mirror-image of the Shinners at their worse.
The sad thing is that I'm sure there is room for another pro-Union site, where different ideas and thoughts could be kicked around and discussed between rational-thinking adults.
I've a feeling when the schools go back next week, we'll soon see the demise of Love Ulster and not a minute too soon!
The whole thing is a pathetic shambles, where the one-sided version of victimhood is a mirror-image of the Shinners at their worse.
The sad thing is that I'm sure there is room for another pro-Union site, where different ideas and thoughts could be kicked around and discussed between rational-thinking adults.
I've a feeling when the schools go back next week, we'll soon see the demise of Love Ulster and not a minute too soon!
30 Aug 2005 @ 20:43
Comment from: Howard [Visitor]
"sectarian hatred and bigotry is more prevalent on the internet than sites like EU and Slugger would have you believe. "
There are a fair number of bigoted people on Slugger, they just express themselves in a slightly more atriculate fashion.
There are a fair number of bigoted people on Slugger, they just express themselves in a slightly more atriculate fashion.
30 Aug 2005 @ 20:51
That is true Howard, but at least there the reasonable views can be seen through the bigoted sectarian ones. At LoveUlster it's hard to describe it as anything but a sea of hate.
30 Aug 2005 @ 20:57
Comment from: Mark [Visitor]
hi, Just a comment on the "love Ulster " thing. First let me declare my hand. I'am a catholic (small c). I don't wear it on my sleeve. Its a private matter. Doesn't inform my politics. I like Ulster too.
My inlaws and wider social are largely protestant. Their response to the loveUlster
initiative was a mix of hysterical laughter/embarasement. They're british identity is defined in terms of values/affection for tradition. There's no space for gun gangs
or drug peddlars. They don't appear to have a problem with their irish identity, believing
rightly the irish have all ways been a component part of the british nation of peoples and always will be. Former Tory minister Norman Tebbit described the irish people as kith & kin, thats why you never needed a passport travelling fron the irish Rep. to Britain and never will. The blood ties are to strong. So i say to protestants forget all this ulster-scot nonsense you'ave been here long enough, my cousins are English not English-Irish. Embrace the best of Irish culture, after all you're contribution has been
significant.
ps: apparently i'am Norman-French
My inlaws and wider social are largely protestant. Their response to the loveUlster
initiative was a mix of hysterical laughter/embarasement. They're british identity is defined in terms of values/affection for tradition. There's no space for gun gangs
or drug peddlars. They don't appear to have a problem with their irish identity, believing
rightly the irish have all ways been a component part of the british nation of peoples and always will be. Former Tory minister Norman Tebbit described the irish people as kith & kin, thats why you never needed a passport travelling fron the irish Rep. to Britain and never will. The blood ties are to strong. So i say to protestants forget all this ulster-scot nonsense you'ave been here long enough, my cousins are English not English-Irish. Embrace the best of Irish culture, after all you're contribution has been
significant.
ps: apparently i'am Norman-French
30 Aug 2005 @ 21:04
Mark, I agree with everything you say except one bit: If people feel that their Ulster-Scots culture is that important, let them explore it. It doesn't have to be at the expense of Irish/Gaelic culture though.
30 Aug 2005 @ 21:07
Comment from: Howard [Visitor]
The depressing things (well there are many others ) about the Love Ulster site are (i) it shows how poor educational standards are amongst so many young people (ii) it shows a poverty of thought - it is not a confident outward lookign european culture but a very insular one and mainly (iii) it is narrowly protestant, just at a time when a very pluralist (catholic, protestant, and ethnic minority) pro-union lobby group could make a really exciting impact.
That LU site is even worse than the stereotype!
That LU site is even worse than the stereotype!
30 Aug 2005 @ 21:22
Comment from: Mark [Visitor]
Comment from: beano [Member] · http://www.everythingulster.com
Mark, I agree with everything you say except one bit: If people feel that their Ulster-Scots culture is that important, let them explore it. It doesn't have to be at the expense of Irish/Gaelic culture though.
absolutely beano. I should say i didn't
mean any disrespect for those who hold that connection with scotland dearly. I would be concerned that after 300+ years some still have a sense of dislocation.
Beano, i thought scots culture had its origins in the Gaelic tradition too; that would explain why the irish assimilate easily into scottish society and vice versa
Mark, I agree with everything you say except one bit: If people feel that their Ulster-Scots culture is that important, let them explore it. It doesn't have to be at the expense of Irish/Gaelic culture though.
absolutely beano. I should say i didn't
mean any disrespect for those who hold that connection with scotland dearly. I would be concerned that after 300+ years some still have a sense of dislocation.
Beano, i thought scots culture had its origins in the Gaelic tradition too; that would explain why the irish assimilate easily into scottish society and vice versa
30 Aug 2005 @ 21:26
Comment from: Howard [Visitor]
I agree with Mark although I think Ulster Scots is something one can have great love for - if you remember people speaking like that - and take an interest in-just like Lowland Scots in Scotland..
I was thinking today about that "2005 covenant" which the LU site has. It says "I believe there is a conspiracy to puch NI into a UI". I wonder how many really think that?
Myself, I believe that the union has not ever been more secure. The demographics have turned out well for the unionists, the IRA are disarming and apparently happy to abide by the principle of consent, the North-South bodies are very limited, and it just remains to work out relations WITHIN NI. .
I really don't believe there is a big conspiracy towards a UI, although there has certainly been steps taken to meet some Sinn Fein demands for how they would like NI to be run internally. These steps are annoying, because they are timed to make it clear they are in return for IRA decommissioning or IRA statements, but they do not amount to a conspiracy to sell NI to a UI.
Some of the changes (like the name change from RUC to PSNI) just make NI seem like an ordinary part of the UK rather than a colony. (The use of the lable Royal appears on no other UK police force).
I believe NIs position in the UK has never been more secure as in 2005.
I was thinking today about that "2005 covenant" which the LU site has. It says "I believe there is a conspiracy to puch NI into a UI". I wonder how many really think that?
Myself, I believe that the union has not ever been more secure. The demographics have turned out well for the unionists, the IRA are disarming and apparently happy to abide by the principle of consent, the North-South bodies are very limited, and it just remains to work out relations WITHIN NI. .
I really don't believe there is a big conspiracy towards a UI, although there has certainly been steps taken to meet some Sinn Fein demands for how they would like NI to be run internally. These steps are annoying, because they are timed to make it clear they are in return for IRA decommissioning or IRA statements, but they do not amount to a conspiracy to sell NI to a UI.
Some of the changes (like the name change from RUC to PSNI) just make NI seem like an ordinary part of the UK rather than a colony. (The use of the lable Royal appears on no other UK police force).
I believe NIs position in the UK has never been more secure as in 2005.
30 Aug 2005 @ 21:32
I don't know an awful lot about US mark, but AFAIK the culture in Scotland's highlands was more gaelic and the lowlands... well less so, but I don't know.
Oh but the Highlandy people spoke Gaelic while the Lowlands people spoke 'Lullans' or Scots.
That's as much as I know about it. lol
Oh but the Highlandy people spoke Gaelic while the Lowlands people spoke 'Lullans' or Scots.
That's as much as I know about it. lol
30 Aug 2005 @ 21:32
Comment from: Mark [Visitor]
Howards right. Though i believe there are additional reasons why the union is more secure than before. The culture we exist in can be safely described as Anglo-American
albeit with minor regional differences. The harmonization of many of our laws within the EC and the narrowing of differences between europeans as we borrow from each other,aspects of culture takes the wind from SF's sails .Whats the point anymore.
I was in Dublin last week. I could easily have been in Manchester, same shops.
I don't need to be an irish citizen to feel irish
albeit with minor regional differences. The harmonization of many of our laws within the EC and the narrowing of differences between europeans as we borrow from each other,aspects of culture takes the wind from SF's sails .Whats the point anymore.
I was in Dublin last week. I could easily have been in Manchester, same shops.
I don't need to be an irish citizen to feel irish
30 Aug 2005 @ 22:01
Comment from: Howard [Visitor]
Yes Mark--I would agree with those points although I think the depth of EU integration has probably reached its limit, for now, given the setback of the French referendum on the constitution..
There is something quite ironic about the present time in NI. The reason many unionists -like those on the LU site- are feeling nervious is actually because Sinn Fein have given up pressing for a UI and are instead pressing for INTERNAL changes to NI as a region of the UK.
They have conceptally reached the position of the SDLP in 1970 - i.e. they want to engage in internal reform of NI because they realise that NI will remain in the UK for as far as the eye can see.
And the changes they are pressing for don't make NI any less a part of the UK, they make one that is a bit less "unionist" but not really much less British.
But just the fact they are pressing for them annoys those of us who regard Sinn Fein as a pretty nasty bunch. And the arrogant style in which they do it is pretty sickening.
Still, those who are unionist have to reforumlate their strategies. But we need to recognise that its not NIs place in the union that is at stake, its the type of NI within the union that is being fought over.
There is something quite ironic about the present time in NI. The reason many unionists -like those on the LU site- are feeling nervious is actually because Sinn Fein have given up pressing for a UI and are instead pressing for INTERNAL changes to NI as a region of the UK.
They have conceptally reached the position of the SDLP in 1970 - i.e. they want to engage in internal reform of NI because they realise that NI will remain in the UK for as far as the eye can see.
And the changes they are pressing for don't make NI any less a part of the UK, they make one that is a bit less "unionist" but not really much less British.
But just the fact they are pressing for them annoys those of us who regard Sinn Fein as a pretty nasty bunch. And the arrogant style in which they do it is pretty sickening.
Still, those who are unionist have to reforumlate their strategies. But we need to recognise that its not NIs place in the union that is at stake, its the type of NI within the union that is being fought over.
30 Aug 2005 @ 22:11
Comment from: Mark [Visitor]
Howard, maybe a bit less "unionist" is all thats needed. There's a danger for SF here.
They can't allow NI to stall. Most catholics/nationalists, despite what loyalists think have no appetite for major upheaval in there lives that UI would entail. They want a stake
in NI and a sense that their culture has a place in what is NI. We are in a unique position. We can learn from all our mistakes
and create a society where difference is celebrated and tolerance is valued. Now that would be a place to live.
This threads been good Howard but the cocoa's waiting. nite nite.
They can't allow NI to stall. Most catholics/nationalists, despite what loyalists think have no appetite for major upheaval in there lives that UI would entail. They want a stake
in NI and a sense that their culture has a place in what is NI. We are in a unique position. We can learn from all our mistakes
and create a society where difference is celebrated and tolerance is valued. Now that would be a place to live.
This threads been good Howard but the cocoa's waiting. nite nite.
30 Aug 2005 @ 22:42
Trackback from: theLeveeBreaks [Visitor]
Love Ulster. Hate Hatred.
Wow. While I’ve been in new-baby-honeymoon-period, an issue has united most Northern Irish bloggers like nothing before!
Yes, I’m talking about the latest high-quality, totally unbiased Northern Irish publication, Love Ulster. And like th...
Full post
Wow. While I’ve been in new-baby-honeymoon-period, an issue has united most Northern Irish bloggers like nothing before!
Yes, I’m talking about the latest high-quality, totally unbiased Northern Irish publication, Love Ulster. And like th...
Full post
30 Aug 2005 @ 22:43
Comment from: graeme [Visitor] · http://www.incorrectuseofsoap.blogspot.com
NI has little in common with the republic, and it seems clear the Brits don't really want you. Why not work to become a separate state within Europe?
31 Aug 2005 @ 01:26
Economically Northern Ireland's a disaster zone. Perhaps a legacy of the troubles, but we cost the British taxpayer a lot of money. Then again I suppose Liverpool probably does too :\
"it seems clear the Brits don't really want you." is a bit of a generalisation. Lefties don't want us, I don't know why, imperial guilt maybe? Plenty of Brits don't want Liverpool either (sorry, I really am picking on the scousers tonight but it's only an example, really!).
I'm not completely against independence, but I'd prefer to stay in the UK, travelling to the mainland and still feeling at home. For all it's flaws, the BBC is still the best provider of TV going.
Oh yeah, and I don't think you have to use too much imagination to see civil war following British withdrawal.
"it seems clear the Brits don't really want you." is a bit of a generalisation. Lefties don't want us, I don't know why, imperial guilt maybe? Plenty of Brits don't want Liverpool either (sorry, I really am picking on the scousers tonight but it's only an example, really!).
I'm not completely against independence, but I'd prefer to stay in the UK, travelling to the mainland and still feeling at home. For all it's flaws, the BBC is still the best provider of TV going.
Oh yeah, and I don't think you have to use too much imagination to see civil war following British withdrawal.
31 Aug 2005 @ 01:40
Comment from: David N [Visitor] · http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ulsternation/
See you've got a fan on Love Ulster Beano :-)
http://www.loveulster.com/forums/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=525
http://www.loveulster.com/forums/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=525
31 Aug 2005 @ 02:05
Comment from: bertie [Visitor]
Beano
I don't often disagree with you, here or on Slugger but there are one or two comments I have to make.
As I said on an other thread that some of the posts of the site had me in a state of shock and I hope you accept my abhorence of the UVF etc, However in principle, there is nothing wrong with a group chosing to have a focus on the victims of a specific movement towards a specific group. This movement is essentually unionist and is finding a focus for many victims who feel that they do not matter and see concession after concession to the murderers.
I can't beleive that you are dissmisive of the suffering of people who have been bereaved or horribly disabled by terrorism but "more people with inflated victimhood mentalities" does need explaining. Does someone who has had a loved one murdered and speaks out got an inflated victimhood mentality. With the still upper lip culture in this country, it is hard enough for those "normally" bereaved to express true emotion, never mind victims of terrorism. My problem with the Sinn Fein/IRA catalogue is the fact that it is Sinn Fein/IRA and to say that this is a mirror image of this (some one else's phrase), is to dismiss the evil of that organisation. A dossier of "loyalist" victims or even a dossier of "loyalist" victims who are exclusively nationalist/RC would not be a problem for me. If I collect for a stroke charity, I am not say up yours you bastards to cancer victims.
Beano, I don't doubt your motives and motivation in this thread, in expressing an alarm that I share, I just think needed to challenge some of what has been expressed on the thread, in general.
I don't often disagree with you, here or on Slugger but there are one or two comments I have to make.
As I said on an other thread that some of the posts of the site had me in a state of shock and I hope you accept my abhorence of the UVF etc, However in principle, there is nothing wrong with a group chosing to have a focus on the victims of a specific movement towards a specific group. This movement is essentually unionist and is finding a focus for many victims who feel that they do not matter and see concession after concession to the murderers.
I can't beleive that you are dissmisive of the suffering of people who have been bereaved or horribly disabled by terrorism but "more people with inflated victimhood mentalities" does need explaining. Does someone who has had a loved one murdered and speaks out got an inflated victimhood mentality. With the still upper lip culture in this country, it is hard enough for those "normally" bereaved to express true emotion, never mind victims of terrorism. My problem with the Sinn Fein/IRA catalogue is the fact that it is Sinn Fein/IRA and to say that this is a mirror image of this (some one else's phrase), is to dismiss the evil of that organisation. A dossier of "loyalist" victims or even a dossier of "loyalist" victims who are exclusively nationalist/RC would not be a problem for me. If I collect for a stroke charity, I am not say up yours you bastards to cancer victims.
Beano, I don't doubt your motives and motivation in this thread, in expressing an alarm that I share, I just think needed to challenge some of what has been expressed on the thread, in general.
31 Aug 2005 @ 07:55
Comment from: mark d [Visitor]
Beano -
Had a good laugh at your discussions on love ulster. You must have felt like you could have gotten more sense out of a tree.
Sadly, the LU forum illustrates the pride in ignorance - with the elements of the 'loyalist' under-classes taking their identity from loathing those not like them - including unionists!
Had a good laugh at your discussions on love ulster. You must have felt like you could have gotten more sense out of a tree.
Sadly, the LU forum illustrates the pride in ignorance - with the elements of the 'loyalist' under-classes taking their identity from loathing those not like them - including unionists!
31 Aug 2005 @ 10:33
bertie just to re-emphasise, I said that it may be useful to record such events and to remember the victims and the arocities that made them victims, but the paper is manipulating the victims to amplify an atmosphere of fear and hatred. Frankly, they deserve better.
31 Aug 2005 @ 12:08
Comment from: larneman [Visitor] · http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/3680/index.html
A couple of points:
The actual content of the paper- articles on attacks on OO property by Dr David Hume and stories from victims of IRA bombings are OK. Generally I’m uneasy about this idea of wrapping ourselves in a flag of victimhood. However there is a section of the community who are understandably bitter at the way republicans have been almost sanctified by the ‘peace/political process’ without ever having renounced their past deeds. There was an undercurrent in the IRA statement which read to many people as saying that the IRA ‘military’ campaign was legitimate and was not going into a new purely political phase. No regret, no apologies. The way the London based media- BBC Sky News sold this as a brave and historic move after having presented so many other statements over 10 years as historic does piss a lot of people off to put it mildly. This paper and website, like the previous Long March campaign seems to be aiming to copy the propaganda techniques of SF. There is also a feeling of political impotence in unionist circles at the lack of influence their elected reps have over the political process. This is not a new phenomenon but is heightened at the moment due to the recent bravado of the DUP in wake of their electoral triumphs, all that ‘days of pushover unionism are over’, concessions have ended stuff. Turned out to be just that- bravado.
The Love Ulster website forum.
Whoever set this up needs their heads examined. From a flick through it seems to be completely unmoderated and is plagued by apologists for loyalist paramilitaries, and people who are obviously internet ‘trolls’ trying to be provocative. Beano and several others have been trying manfully to talk a bit of sense on the forum.
The launch/ distribution of the paper.
Media coverage of this on Talkback for example has made clear that UDA men have got involved in this campaign. For example on Mondays Talkback, which can be listened to again on the web. A couple of ‘random’ people from Carrickfergus were interviewed. One was Stanley Fletcher the amusingly named prisoner spokesman for the UPRG and Bobby Rice from Greenisland a well connected unsuccessful candidate at the last election. When added to the Newsletter quotes it appears that this campaign is tainted with paramilitary involvement. As such it will be rejected by the vast majority of the community and those associated with it will be tainted. Brother Saulters and Hume have to explain themselves.
Another thing- I’m from Larne. It pissed me off that Larne has been dragged into the headlines in a negative context. Again on Talkback, the headline was “Last Stand in Loyal Larne, Has the clock stopped in 1914.†And Gonzo has alluded to the historical analogies with the UVF gunrunning episode. Larne has settled down over the last few years. In 2000-2001 there was a sectarian pipe bomb campaign directed from Rathcoole by Grugg Greig’s UDA company (see Henry McDonald’s recent book), but sectarian incidents have been stamped out by the PSNI and community relations are generally good. BTW housing in Larne is almost completely mixed. There is power sharing on the local Council and people have been working hard to improve the area’s image. Then we have this nonsense and we are back to square one again. Thanks Bobby (Saulters) and Jackie (McDonald)… now clear off back to your own town.
The actual content of the paper- articles on attacks on OO property by Dr David Hume and stories from victims of IRA bombings are OK. Generally I’m uneasy about this idea of wrapping ourselves in a flag of victimhood. However there is a section of the community who are understandably bitter at the way republicans have been almost sanctified by the ‘peace/political process’ without ever having renounced their past deeds. There was an undercurrent in the IRA statement which read to many people as saying that the IRA ‘military’ campaign was legitimate and was not going into a new purely political phase. No regret, no apologies. The way the London based media- BBC Sky News sold this as a brave and historic move after having presented so many other statements over 10 years as historic does piss a lot of people off to put it mildly. This paper and website, like the previous Long March campaign seems to be aiming to copy the propaganda techniques of SF. There is also a feeling of political impotence in unionist circles at the lack of influence their elected reps have over the political process. This is not a new phenomenon but is heightened at the moment due to the recent bravado of the DUP in wake of their electoral triumphs, all that ‘days of pushover unionism are over’, concessions have ended stuff. Turned out to be just that- bravado.
The Love Ulster website forum.
Whoever set this up needs their heads examined. From a flick through it seems to be completely unmoderated and is plagued by apologists for loyalist paramilitaries, and people who are obviously internet ‘trolls’ trying to be provocative. Beano and several others have been trying manfully to talk a bit of sense on the forum.
The launch/ distribution of the paper.
Media coverage of this on Talkback for example has made clear that UDA men have got involved in this campaign. For example on Mondays Talkback, which can be listened to again on the web. A couple of ‘random’ people from Carrickfergus were interviewed. One was Stanley Fletcher the amusingly named prisoner spokesman for the UPRG and Bobby Rice from Greenisland a well connected unsuccessful candidate at the last election. When added to the Newsletter quotes it appears that this campaign is tainted with paramilitary involvement. As such it will be rejected by the vast majority of the community and those associated with it will be tainted. Brother Saulters and Hume have to explain themselves.
Another thing- I’m from Larne. It pissed me off that Larne has been dragged into the headlines in a negative context. Again on Talkback, the headline was “Last Stand in Loyal Larne, Has the clock stopped in 1914.†And Gonzo has alluded to the historical analogies with the UVF gunrunning episode. Larne has settled down over the last few years. In 2000-2001 there was a sectarian pipe bomb campaign directed from Rathcoole by Grugg Greig’s UDA company (see Henry McDonald’s recent book), but sectarian incidents have been stamped out by the PSNI and community relations are generally good. BTW housing in Larne is almost completely mixed. There is power sharing on the local Council and people have been working hard to improve the area’s image. Then we have this nonsense and we are back to square one again. Thanks Bobby (Saulters) and Jackie (McDonald)… now clear off back to your own town.
31 Aug 2005 @ 14:29
Comment from: Paul [Visitor] · http://www.nimagyar.blogspot.com
"However there is a section of the community who are understandably bitter at the way republicans have been almost sanctified by the ‘peace/political process’ without ever having renounced their past deeds"
Larneman,
I feel mightily pissed off as well at this and am desperately sorry that the many victims of the IRA murder campaign will have to suffer the further pain of seeing members of the same organisation governing their country( and that's only a question of time).
But whatever the IRA did, it never and still doesn't justify a mirror reaction on the Loyalist side, with their own mobsters committing exactly the same kind of crimes the Provos did. I know you personally haven't justified the likes of the UVF/UDA etc, but the fact that these organisations appear to be playing some kind of role with this campaign completely switches me and many other Unionists off and whatever other good this kind of campaign could achieve is lost. SF win the PR battle once again.
We should learn from the enemy. When SF run their campaigns, the PR is professional and the organisation is tight, with very few skeletons allowed to pop out of the cupboard to embarrass them. They love the kind of Loyalist loonies that are presently loose on the LU website, they're not so keen to get involved when met with the kind of intelligent and modern Unionism the likes of Beano represent. We( the decent end of Unionism) should be confronting them and exposing the holes in their logic and morality at every possible opportunity.
Sorry for the length of the sermon!
Larneman,
I feel mightily pissed off as well at this and am desperately sorry that the many victims of the IRA murder campaign will have to suffer the further pain of seeing members of the same organisation governing their country( and that's only a question of time).
But whatever the IRA did, it never and still doesn't justify a mirror reaction on the Loyalist side, with their own mobsters committing exactly the same kind of crimes the Provos did. I know you personally haven't justified the likes of the UVF/UDA etc, but the fact that these organisations appear to be playing some kind of role with this campaign completely switches me and many other Unionists off and whatever other good this kind of campaign could achieve is lost. SF win the PR battle once again.
We should learn from the enemy. When SF run their campaigns, the PR is professional and the organisation is tight, with very few skeletons allowed to pop out of the cupboard to embarrass them. They love the kind of Loyalist loonies that are presently loose on the LU website, they're not so keen to get involved when met with the kind of intelligent and modern Unionism the likes of Beano represent. We( the decent end of Unionism) should be confronting them and exposing the holes in their logic and morality at every possible opportunity.
Sorry for the length of the sermon!
31 Aug 2005 @ 19:20
Comment from: larneman [Visitor] · http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/3680/index.html
Paul,
I am in total agreement with you. if that did not come across in my original post, it was due to me making it up as i went along. However but I did say "it appears that this campaign is tainted with paramilitary involvement. As such it will be rejected by the vast majority of the community and those associated with it will be tainted."
I know one of the guys who wrote an article in it, and I'll be asking him exactly what he is playing at in the near future.
I am in total agreement with you. if that did not come across in my original post, it was due to me making it up as i went along. However but I did say "it appears that this campaign is tainted with paramilitary involvement. As such it will be rejected by the vast majority of the community and those associated with it will be tainted."
I know one of the guys who wrote an article in it, and I'll be asking him exactly what he is playing at in the near future.
01 Sep 2005 @ 10:01
Comment from: David Nicholl [Visitor] · http://www.loveulster.com
Moderators have now been appointed to remove negative contributions. Love Ulster is dedicated to building this campaign and are genuinely interested in positive contributions from all sections of unionism.
Do not write this campaign off so quickly many good people have put their heart and soul into this and are committed to finding a way forward.
Do not write this campaign off so quickly many good people have put their heart and soul into this and are committed to finding a way forward.
01 Sep 2005 @ 12:15
Comment from: larneman [Visitor] · http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/3680/index.html
David Nicholl,
Are you officially involved in the campaign and if so what is its purpose? What is its attitude towards loyalist paramilitaries?
Are you officially involved in the campaign and if so what is its purpose? What is its attitude towards loyalist paramilitaries?
01 Sep 2005 @ 14:37
Comment from: larneman [Visitor] · http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/3680/index.html
David Nicholl,
You are presumably the same David Nicholl who is the Londonderry spokesman for the UPRG.
How organised the event in Larne? Who invited your nmates from Carrick?
What role has your organisation have in this campaign, and why,given your connection to a loyalist paramilitary gang should ordinary unionists want to be associated with it in any way?
You are presumably the same David Nicholl who is the Londonderry spokesman for the UPRG.
How organised the event in Larne? Who invited your nmates from Carrick?
What role has your organisation have in this campaign, and why,given your connection to a loyalist paramilitary gang should ordinary unionists want to be associated with it in any way?
01 Sep 2005 @ 16:10
Comment from: bertie [Visitor]
beano
do I understand correctly that you are a moderator on the site? If so I think that's a step in the right direction. How are you finding it?
do I understand correctly that you are a moderator on the site? If so I think that's a step in the right direction. How are you finding it?
01 Sep 2005 @ 21:50
You understand correctly. I was going to mention on here but I thought I'd see if it helped at all first.
It's going ok, the debate seems a touch less sectarian and hate fuelled, but there's still a good bit of nonsense being talked.
It's going ok, the debate seems a touch less sectarian and hate fuelled, but there's still a good bit of nonsense being talked.
01 Sep 2005 @ 22:19
Comment from: bertie [Visitor]
beano
Nonsense I can cope with, now that you've done the hard work I may even venture in to comment!
I want to think that having you as a moderator is a sign that the organisers do want to distance themselves from the terrorist filth and that it may be possible to support the wider enterprise.
Nonsense I can cope with, now that you've done the hard work I may even venture in to comment!
I want to think that having you as a moderator is a sign that the organisers do want to distance themselves from the terrorist filth and that it may be possible to support the wider enterprise.
01 Sep 2005 @ 22:32
Comment from: caulfield [Member] 
LoveUlster? Hate filled gobshites pouring vitriol at anyone they dont agree with - It made me ashamed of being a prod. it would be funny if it wasn't so awful
01 Sep 2005 @ 22:49
Comment from: Paul [Visitor] · http://www.nimagyar.blogspot.com
Ok, so now with proper moderators in place, the standard of debate will hopefully be raised.
But the basic question posed by Larneman hasn't been answered. What part are the loyalist paramilitaries playing in the "Love Ulster" campaign?
I've no problem now posting comments on the site(hell, I even venture into Balrog, on occasions), but until the paramilitary question is settled, I can't support the overall campaign.
But the basic question posed by Larneman hasn't been answered. What part are the loyalist paramilitaries playing in the "Love Ulster" campaign?
I've no problem now posting comments on the site(hell, I even venture into Balrog, on occasions), but until the paramilitary question is settled, I can't support the overall campaign.
02 Sep 2005 @ 11:47
Comment from: larneman [Visitor] · http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/3680/index.html
Yes that is exactly the point. I heard about this thing on Tuesday, and listened to the Monday talkback show on the web, and the on line Newsletter to find out more. The fact that the two random people interviewed by the BBC at the ‘launch event’ were easily identifiable people with lets say ‘connections’ to the UDA who were wittering on about ‘the Prodesant people getting nuthin…sell out…make a stand for Ulster’ etc immediately raised my deep suspicions. Then we have a UPRG man calling for support on this site.
For what it is worth I am proud of where I come from, but these assholes in the UPRG/UDA have helped to give my town (and country) a reputation which will take years and years to get rid of.
I have had another wee look at the site, and would have to applaud Beano’s efforts at talking some sense into these guys, he must have a heart like a lion (and too much time on his hands!!)
My conclusion (unless the organizers come clean) is that this site/ campaign is a direct descendant to the extreme super prod Ulster Human Rights Watch/ Ulster Protestant Movement for Justice/ Long March with connections to the UPRG/UDA and hard right fundamentalist elements in the Orange and the DUP (although they are too cute to publicly admit this).
For what it is worth I am proud of where I come from, but these assholes in the UPRG/UDA have helped to give my town (and country) a reputation which will take years and years to get rid of.
I have had another wee look at the site, and would have to applaud Beano’s efforts at talking some sense into these guys, he must have a heart like a lion (and too much time on his hands!!)
My conclusion (unless the organizers come clean) is that this site/ campaign is a direct descendant to the extreme super prod Ulster Human Rights Watch/ Ulster Protestant Movement for Justice/ Long March with connections to the UPRG/UDA and hard right fundamentalist elements in the Orange and the DUP (although they are too cute to publicly admit this).
02 Sep 2005 @ 15:32
Comment from: Aileen [Visitor]
larneman
I have been assured that the invitation went out to unionist to turn up and that no specific invitation went to these people.
I am confused by your last phrase "Long March with connections to the UPRG/UDA "
I was involved in the Long March. when I first heard about it my first concern was about possible "loyalist" terrorist involvement. I made enquiries and received assurances. (I was also reassured by the public demonstration of respect as the walk passed the scene of the Greysteel atrocity.) I was told by one of the organisers that one of the "loyalists", whose father had been murdered by republicans had left a message on the phone that he wanted to come along. The organiser said, "I don't talk to terrorists" so he did not return the call. Although the campaign was focused on Protestant victims of republican terrorism, I asked what would happen if an innocent victims of "loyalist" terrorism wanted to join? the answer was that they woild be made welcome (as of cource would a RC victims of republican terrorism.)
I spoke at one of the associated rallies in Portadown, not without trepidation considering Portadown's reputation and I was going to condemn "loyalist" terroism in my rabble rousing.
I condemned appeasing terrorism and said "I want to make it quite clear that I no more forgive the UVF etc for the evil that it has done than I forgive the IRA". I went on to comment about the loyalist terrorists as the only unionists Mo Molam had any regard for and how disgusted I was at the way she ran to talk to them in prison, a governement minister running to murderers to check that she was sufficiently subserviant to their interests. As I started my speech, I got loud appreciative cheers from the sea of faces, not unexpectedly as I was taking swipes at the IRA. When I took a swipe at the the UVF, I got just as loud a cheer. There was one lone heckle, from a UVF member in the crowd.
Throughout the days that I was on the Long March, I was encouraged to speak by the organisers, who were in no doubt about my opposition to terrorism accross the board.
I have been assured that the invitation went out to unionist to turn up and that no specific invitation went to these people.
I am confused by your last phrase "Long March with connections to the UPRG/UDA "
I was involved in the Long March. when I first heard about it my first concern was about possible "loyalist" terrorist involvement. I made enquiries and received assurances. (I was also reassured by the public demonstration of respect as the walk passed the scene of the Greysteel atrocity.) I was told by one of the organisers that one of the "loyalists", whose father had been murdered by republicans had left a message on the phone that he wanted to come along. The organiser said, "I don't talk to terrorists" so he did not return the call. Although the campaign was focused on Protestant victims of republican terrorism, I asked what would happen if an innocent victims of "loyalist" terrorism wanted to join? the answer was that they woild be made welcome (as of cource would a RC victims of republican terrorism.)
I spoke at one of the associated rallies in Portadown, not without trepidation considering Portadown's reputation and I was going to condemn "loyalist" terroism in my rabble rousing.
I condemned appeasing terrorism and said "I want to make it quite clear that I no more forgive the UVF etc for the evil that it has done than I forgive the IRA". I went on to comment about the loyalist terrorists as the only unionists Mo Molam had any regard for and how disgusted I was at the way she ran to talk to them in prison, a governement minister running to murderers to check that she was sufficiently subserviant to their interests. As I started my speech, I got loud appreciative cheers from the sea of faces, not unexpectedly as I was taking swipes at the IRA. When I took a swipe at the the UVF, I got just as loud a cheer. There was one lone heckle, from a UVF member in the crowd.
Throughout the days that I was on the Long March, I was encouraged to speak by the organisers, who were in no doubt about my opposition to terrorism accross the board.
03 Sep 2005 @ 14:28
Comment from: CARSON [Visitor] · http://www.caltonradio.com/
Quote "I had a similar experience on Calton Radio, but thought that being a new site, Love Ulster might be different. Unfortunately, sectarian hatred and bigotry is more prevalent on the internet" End quote.
Instead of running Calton down and likening it to that disaster that is Love Ulster perhaps you could qualify your statement.
Calton has a large cross section of members all with differing views, some from the Republic and admittedly a small section of what could be described as knuckle draggers but any out an out sectarianism, bigotry or rubbish similar to that posted on LU is quickly stopped, removed and the idiots warned. If it continues after a warning the idiots soon find themselves removed and banned from the site completely.
There is no way anyone could get away with some of the tripe posted on Love Ulster on the Calton site. Its just not tolerated so I find your comparison of the two sites as similar quite untrue.
With a new radio schedule in place and other continuing improvements I think you will find that Calton Radio is one of the more open and sensible forums for debate, information and entertainment.
Instead of running Calton down and likening it to that disaster that is Love Ulster perhaps you could qualify your statement.
Calton has a large cross section of members all with differing views, some from the Republic and admittedly a small section of what could be described as knuckle draggers but any out an out sectarianism, bigotry or rubbish similar to that posted on LU is quickly stopped, removed and the idiots warned. If it continues after a warning the idiots soon find themselves removed and banned from the site completely.
There is no way anyone could get away with some of the tripe posted on Love Ulster on the Calton site. Its just not tolerated so I find your comparison of the two sites as similar quite untrue.
With a new radio schedule in place and other continuing improvements I think you will find that Calton Radio is one of the more open and sensible forums for debate, information and entertainment.
10 Feb 2006 @ 13:22
When I was there (last July/Augustish) the knuckledraggers certainly didn't seem to be in the minority, and the content was quite similar to some of the stuff on Love Ulster. So I don't think my comment deserves any qualification save the following:
I've been contacted by a webmaster from Calton to say the situation has changed since the forums have been relaunched, but since I haven't been back after my 'head-banging-against-wall' experience last summer, I couldn't comment.
I've been contacted by a webmaster from Calton to say the situation has changed since the forums have been relaunched, but since I haven't been back after my 'head-banging-against-wall' experience last summer, I couldn't comment.
10 Feb 2006 @ 13:41
Comment from: Streapach [Visitor]
Hey, its seems that the majority of the Northern Protestant population is not represented by this uneducated, and groosly ignorant bunch of commoners.
Basically Im fromp the south, and would really like to chat to an educated northern Protestants, who wants to keep the Union. Im very interested in this issue, and Im respectful of all those who respect my point of view;
Contact me on donnacha90@hotmail.com to arrange some sort of debate.
Basically Im fromp the south, and would really like to chat to an educated northern Protestants, who wants to keep the Union. Im very interested in this issue, and Im respectful of all those who respect my point of view;
Contact me on donnacha90@hotmail.com to arrange some sort of debate.
20 Feb 2006 @ 16:58
Comment from: Pete [Visitor]
This comment has been moved to post: So Much For Eire Nua
Beano
Beano
25 Feb 2006 @ 23:48
Comment from: drew [Visitor]
newsflash : the majority of normal people in the rest of ireland Do Not want a united ireland . can you imagine some think Guard from the bog arse of kerry trying to police a linfield soccer match ? the people of northern ireland need self determination outside the westminister/dublin context .cherish and remember your tradition yes ; but we (by we i mean educated southerners who remember that our country was born of the british empire as was yours) are not "out to get you" nor do we want to force you into a doctrine driven society. most people , including myself value the colour , passion and history of the ulster scot tradition . if there are elements of that tradition that are anti-irish catholic , well thats their loss . but they have to remember that there is no ulster scots part of the union flag , they , and historically the whole island , is/are represented by St Patricks cross .you are the Irish of the united kingdom . the only way forward is for us all to consolidate our own identitys with ourselves . tribalism only fuels anger and violence . we have to live on these islands together , lets just get on with it
27 Feb 2006 @ 15:00
Comment from: Simon [Visitor]
For a site calling itself 'Everything Ulster' there seems to be a dearth of information on Counties Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan!!
Ulster is not Northern ireland and Northern Ireland is not Ulster, you folks really need to brush up on your geography.
Saying that it's most welcome to see an open-minded Unionist site for a change, best of luck in the future with it.
BTW I'm from Galway and raised a catholic but have no religion now if anyone was interested. I still think it's crazy to have these problems over minute differences in the catholic and protestant religions, not that many pay much heed to either nowadays which I feel is great.
Bestests,
Simon.
Ulster is not Northern ireland and Northern Ireland is not Ulster, you folks really need to brush up on your geography.
Saying that it's most welcome to see an open-minded Unionist site for a change, best of luck in the future with it.
BTW I'm from Galway and raised a catholic but have no religion now if anyone was interested. I still think it's crazy to have these problems over minute differences in the catholic and protestant religions, not that many pay much heed to either nowadays which I feel is great.
Bestests,
Simon.
23 Aug 2008 @ 09:48
Comment from: Mike [Visitor]
"For a site calling itself 'Everything Ulster' there seems to be a dearth of information on Counties Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan!!"
Cavan (Ahem Ahem) (what was that about needing to brush up on Geography ?)
Donegal
Monaghan (With apologies to Tyrone)
Although admitidely EU is a bit lacking in its coverage of the Isle of Man which used to be part of Ulster -well its no sillier than the stuff SOME people want taught in School
24 Aug 2008 @ 10:26
Simon, I'd also direct you to a thread where I discussed the very issue you raise:
Why Ulster? and point out the hypocrisy of someone from "Ireland" complaining of the above.
Why Ulster? and point out the hypocrisy of someone from "Ireland" complaining of the above.
24 Aug 2008 @ 10:27
Comment from: Mike [Visitor]
To be entirely fair to the Loveulster forums the quality of the moderation varied widely at various points in time depending on who was doing it. There were times when it was a playground for the lowest forms of barely literate pondlife (as per the quotes above), a soapbox for all manner of extremist conspiracy theory nutcases and generally infested with trolls and spammers. At other times one could find some interesting and occasionally humorous threads on the site. There was a bit of a colourful history as well with splits, breakaway sites, Mods resigning in protest and a recent (short-lived) attempt at revival.
But unfortunately there were the individuals who evolution forgot as well but if (for whatever masochistic reason) you really want to observe such organisms in their natural habitat there are always the guestbooks of groups like EBCWG and FAIR which make the Loveulster forums look like the Oxford debating society in comparison.
But unfortunately there were the individuals who evolution forgot as well but if (for whatever masochistic reason) you really want to observe such organisms in their natural habitat there are always the guestbooks of groups like EBCWG and FAIR which make the Loveulster forums look like the Oxford debating society in comparison.
25 Aug 2008 @ 18:50
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