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Ulster In Tug-Of-War (for a change)
by beano 
on 13 Feb 2006 at 16:42. Categories: Northern Ireland, Scotland, Irish Republic, PSNI, Business & Economy 
Local politicos argue over Ulster's links, but would either Scotland or the Republic be that worried about co-operation with Northern Ireland?
Not for the first time, our local politicians (of both hues) have today failed miserably to see the big picture. As noted at Slugger, the SDLP have released a document entitled "North-South makes sense" calling for closer co-operation between Northern Ireland and the Republic in many areas, including notably an all-island sex-offenders register and an all-island intellignce body.
Meanwhile the DUP have, novelly, if not unpredictably, called for closer co-operation with... Scotland. Citing "well-documented and irrefutable historical links" as well as common problems such as "poor transportation infrastructure, the decline of heavy industry and textiles and an underdeveloped tourism potential," MEP Jim Allister claimed such co-operation was more natural "than the unnatural and politically-motivated north-southery."
While what they both say may be true, both parties seem to fail miserably to grasp the concept that it will take a common British-Isles solution to really get to grips with some of these problems. The sex offenders register is an obvious example of where this would make sense. Why limit it to this island, when there is such free and frequent travel and relocation between it and it's closest neighbour?
Follow up:
So why the short-sightedness? Simple, it's what voters want. The SDLP know they could never sell closer co-operation with the evil imperialists and likewise the DUP would be wary of losing some of their hard-line image should they show anything less then revulsion at the idea of Dublin interference in Ulster's affairs.
Grow up lads, and think about this logically. Cut the tribal dance for a couple of minutes and do what makes sense for Northern Ireland.
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20 comments
Comment from: smcgiff [Visitor]
Interesting graphic, Beano, and it might just be the answer. How about a URIS – A United Republic of Ireland and Scotland?
It would mean Scotland and NI leaving the Union with England & Wales, but Scotland and Ireland have a lot in common, with a good balance in religious terms.
Ah, well – of course the title of URSI would be totally unacceptable!
It would mean Scotland and NI leaving the Union with England & Wales, but Scotland and Ireland have a lot in common, with a good balance in religious terms.
Ah, well – of course the title of URSI would be totally unacceptable!
14 Feb 2006 @ 10:46
So we dump England and Wales for the Republic? Why on earth would we want to do that? And if the Republic would like to be part of such a republic, what, other than anti-English bigotry, would prevent them joining a United Republic of Great Britain and Ireland?
14 Feb 2006 @ 10:54
Comment from: smcgiff [Visitor]
The reason why the Irish Republic should not join a UR of GB and Ireland is the same reason why a URIS would make sense. England is far too big for Ireland, Scotland and Wales (although England and Wales tend to blur into each other better than Scotland and Ireland). A URIS would be finely balanced. A good synergy that would aid Scotland and Ireland in a way that the sheer size (populationwise) of England doesn’t allow Scotland and NI right now.
14 Feb 2006 @ 11:01
Of course in URSI, both the South and Scotland would be "too big" for Northern Ireland. It just depends where you draw the lines.
14 Feb 2006 @ 11:10
Comment from: smcgiff [Visitor]
'Of course in URSI, both the South and Scotland would be "too big" for Northern Ireland. It just depends where you draw the lines. '
That's why I suggested URIS!!! J
NI would have approx 16% of the population in a URIS, this would allow it real influence as to how URIS’s budget gets distributed.
That's why I suggested URIS!!! J
NI would have approx 16% of the population in a URIS, this would allow it real influence as to how URIS’s budget gets distributed.
14 Feb 2006 @ 11:28
Comment from: Bob Wilson [Visitor]
In total agreement again Beano.
I mean the sex offenders proposal implies we'd be happy for sex offenders to live in Stranraer and Holyhead and vist Dublin and Belfast regularly!
The other classic is the case for the Assets Recovery Agency in the North to be merged with CAB in South. Didnt SDLP see the ARA raids in Manchester? Are the unaware of IRA slot machine scams in London and Loyalist drug connections in the north of England and Scotland?
Most of their arguments are actually good arguments for the Republic rejoining the UK - did they float that as an option?
The 'big idea' pf the moment is of course harmonising corporation tax (at the RoI level) some prats in the Belfast Tele and business community have jumped on this bandwagon.
When the Tories suggested tax cuts at election time Labour and the media always say 'What would you cut, which hospitals would you close'
Why doesnt the media ask this of the SDLP proposal?
Is in Altnagelvin or the Royal, the dual carriageway to LDerry, the Westlink improvements? I think we should be told!
What thats you say - the nationalists expect England to keep expenditure the same but happily reduce the amount of revenue they receive from NI!
VOO DOO economics
Fantasy Politics
I mean the sex offenders proposal implies we'd be happy for sex offenders to live in Stranraer and Holyhead and vist Dublin and Belfast regularly!
The other classic is the case for the Assets Recovery Agency in the North to be merged with CAB in South. Didnt SDLP see the ARA raids in Manchester? Are the unaware of IRA slot machine scams in London and Loyalist drug connections in the north of England and Scotland?
Most of their arguments are actually good arguments for the Republic rejoining the UK - did they float that as an option?
The 'big idea' pf the moment is of course harmonising corporation tax (at the RoI level) some prats in the Belfast Tele and business community have jumped on this bandwagon.
When the Tories suggested tax cuts at election time Labour and the media always say 'What would you cut, which hospitals would you close'
Why doesnt the media ask this of the SDLP proposal?
Is in Altnagelvin or the Royal, the dual carriageway to LDerry, the Westlink improvements? I think we should be told!
What thats you say - the nationalists expect England to keep expenditure the same but happily reduce the amount of revenue they receive from NI!
VOO DOO economics
Fantasy Politics
14 Feb 2006 @ 11:55
Comment from: smcgiff [Visitor]
'What thats you say - the nationalists expect England to keep expenditure the same but happily reduce the amount of revenue they receive from NI!
VOO DOO economics
Fantasy Politics'
The ultimate goal would be to turn NI into a viable economy. To do this you need to attract investment. Why would anyone currently invest in NI. Your position, Bob, is to allow England to support NI for ever. OR, am I wrong. What are your proposals. I'm guessing you have some or you wouldn't be dismissing lowering tax rates out of hand.
As a quick economics lecture. Why not raise tax to 100% in NI? That way you could put a hospital at the end of every road going by your logic.
VOO DOO economics
Fantasy Politics'
The ultimate goal would be to turn NI into a viable economy. To do this you need to attract investment. Why would anyone currently invest in NI. Your position, Bob, is to allow England to support NI for ever. OR, am I wrong. What are your proposals. I'm guessing you have some or you wouldn't be dismissing lowering tax rates out of hand.
As a quick economics lecture. Why not raise tax to 100% in NI? That way you could put a hospital at the end of every road going by your logic.
14 Feb 2006 @ 12:46
Comment from: bob wilson [Visitor]
Lack of investment in NI is primarily due to political instability. Instability that is primarily due to the inability of SF/IRA to accept the rule of law and the inability of unionists to move away from sectarian politics. the SDLP document may also feed that instability - it is just an attempt to show how green they are. Not a serious attempt at improving the NI economy.
I'm all for cooperation but I'm against dressing up nationalism as 'north south makes sense'.
I'm all for cutting taxes - but you cant have your cake and eat it!
Do you support a All IslandS ARA and sex offender list BTW?
I'm all for cooperation but I'm against dressing up nationalism as 'north south makes sense'.
I'm all for cutting taxes - but you cant have your cake and eat it!
Do you support a All IslandS ARA and sex offender list BTW?
14 Feb 2006 @ 12:55
Comment from: smcgiff [Visitor]
‘Do you support a All IslandS ARA and sex offender list BTW?’
A UK/Ireland sex offenders list makes perfect sense. I’d see a problem with an all Ireland/all Islands ARA or CAB as we have slightly different laws. I suppose it could be done. I’d be for anything that improves the prospect of catching criminals.
A UK/Ireland sex offenders list makes perfect sense. I’d see a problem with an all Ireland/all Islands ARA or CAB as we have slightly different laws. I suppose it could be done. I’d be for anything that improves the prospect of catching criminals.
14 Feb 2006 @ 13:19
Comment from: eranu [Visitor]
as far as i can see, all nationalists can come up with is to think of something and then put 'all ireland' infront of it. for no apparent reason! atleast nothing thats explained in detail. if there was a detailed proposal of how 2 existing systems work in NI and ROI and then a thorough explaination of how a single system would be better for both countries, then that would be worth looking at. but we'd need to see point by point comparasion of both separate and integrated systems, costs / benefits etc etc.
unfortunately anything ive heard of so far just seems like detail lacking schoolboy nonsense.
most needs can be met by cooperation between states. the same sort of thing that happens with other neighbouring states im sure. for example, the all ireland sex register. ITwise, its a simple matter to share databases between offices via the internet or leased lines. no need for the cost of a new body to be set up. it just doesnt make sense!
unfortunately the only reason that i can see to publish these sorts of things is to be seen to say 'all ireland' as many times as possible. cringe !!!!
the recent penalty point changes are a piece of north south cooperation that everyone can support. its not an all ireland penalty point system, its just sensible cooperation between states!!!!
unfortunately anything ive heard of so far just seems like detail lacking schoolboy nonsense.
most needs can be met by cooperation between states. the same sort of thing that happens with other neighbouring states im sure. for example, the all ireland sex register. ITwise, its a simple matter to share databases between offices via the internet or leased lines. no need for the cost of a new body to be set up. it just doesnt make sense!
unfortunately the only reason that i can see to publish these sorts of things is to be seen to say 'all ireland' as many times as possible. cringe !!!!
the recent penalty point changes are a piece of north south cooperation that everyone can support. its not an all ireland penalty point system, its just sensible cooperation between states!!!!
14 Feb 2006 @ 14:29
In ref to your point eranu, I get the impression the SDLP are at least thinking about which areas it makes sense to co-operate in, unlike SF who simply pick a vote-winning subject (healthcare, suicide prevention etc), wait for a problem to be identified and provide their panacea of an "all-ireland approach" to whatever it was.
The SDLP (seem to) have at least singled out areas where it makes sense, they just failed to take the next logical step to East-West co-operation.
The SDLP (seem to) have at least singled out areas where it makes sense, they just failed to take the next logical step to East-West co-operation.
14 Feb 2006 @ 15:42
Comment from: eranu [Visitor]
beano,
id need to see the meat of a proposal before i would say that it made sense. it should be writen down to the finest detail of the 'business model'. then it can be analysed and either taken up as a good idea or rejected as bad. to be good it would have to benefit both irish states.
i cant see anything more than people suggesting something and then saying that it makes sense to do it. there has to be details on the logical process that has deduced that a specific proposal is sensible / beneficial.
theres just too many papers from NI parties, all of them i suppose, that consist of little more than a collection of headlines using the same limited set of words and phrases..
the penalty point law change could have been detailed under proposals for 'all ireland traffic laws' or some sort of nationalist sounding title. but we never get beyond the title and possibley some vague ideas in these party papers.
can any party prove they thought of this idea first? if they can, then they go up a notch in my book.
id need to see the meat of a proposal before i would say that it made sense. it should be writen down to the finest detail of the 'business model'. then it can be analysed and either taken up as a good idea or rejected as bad. to be good it would have to benefit both irish states.
i cant see anything more than people suggesting something and then saying that it makes sense to do it. there has to be details on the logical process that has deduced that a specific proposal is sensible / beneficial.
theres just too many papers from NI parties, all of them i suppose, that consist of little more than a collection of headlines using the same limited set of words and phrases..
the penalty point law change could have been detailed under proposals for 'all ireland traffic laws' or some sort of nationalist sounding title. but we never get beyond the title and possibley some vague ideas in these party papers.
can any party prove they thought of this idea first? if they can, then they go up a notch in my book.
14 Feb 2006 @ 16:24
Comment from: sean faren [Visitor]
Typically many commentators reach for the easy clichés and condemn what the document contains in the terms in which they have defined political discourse in Northern Ireland, it has to be either orange or green. Since the document has been presented as a working document dealing with North-South issues it would be the intelligent thing to judge it in those terms. The SDLP, as the document itself makes clear and as was stated at yeserday's launch sees the need to address all of its issues in terms of the three stands of our situation and indeed of the wider global scene as well. To ignore the immediate context of all all-Ireland relationships would be utter folly and can't happen anyway.
Who then really has their heads in their heads in the sand?
Who then really has their heads in their heads in the sand?
14 Feb 2006 @ 20:54
Comment from: eranu [Visitor]
hi sean, easy cliches are what NI politicians use all the time. all those well worn words and phrases. thats whats so tiring for us, the public, to listen to all the time. if it was a list of sound policies that everyone could see were good ideas, then they'd get a better reception.
as regards north-south issues. does the sdlp ever suggest a close cooperative relationship between agencies or organisations in NI and ROI? simply for the benefit of NI? or is the answer always to create one all ireland agency? im fairly certain that most problems can be resolved through simple cooperation. lets look at other small neighbouring states to see how they do things? as far as i can see the only reason nationalists promote all ireland agencies is to diminish the agencies and state of NI. if we can create enough all ireland institutions then eventually NI will dissapear.. isnt that the thinking?? if thats wrong then nationalists are (like unionists) trying to improve NI and make it work, surely not!!
the 3 strands are north-south, within NI, and UK - ROI if i remember right. if thats the north-south paper will there be 2 more papers to come? will the sdlp be publishing any papers on their ideas on improving NI that dont involve the south? or on improving NIs relationships within the UK that will be of benefit to NI? possibley promoting links with scotland? i couldnt see that happening. hopefully im wrong?
as regards north-south issues. does the sdlp ever suggest a close cooperative relationship between agencies or organisations in NI and ROI? simply for the benefit of NI? or is the answer always to create one all ireland agency? im fairly certain that most problems can be resolved through simple cooperation. lets look at other small neighbouring states to see how they do things? as far as i can see the only reason nationalists promote all ireland agencies is to diminish the agencies and state of NI. if we can create enough all ireland institutions then eventually NI will dissapear.. isnt that the thinking?? if thats wrong then nationalists are (like unionists) trying to improve NI and make it work, surely not!!
the 3 strands are north-south, within NI, and UK - ROI if i remember right. if thats the north-south paper will there be 2 more papers to come? will the sdlp be publishing any papers on their ideas on improving NI that dont involve the south? or on improving NIs relationships within the UK that will be of benefit to NI? possibley promoting links with scotland? i couldnt see that happening. hopefully im wrong?
15 Feb 2006 @ 12:55
Comment from: Bob Wilson [Visitor]
If Sean Faren is still reading would he like to respond to my specific points about the sex offenders register and the war on organised crime (see above)
Namely would he support the creation of and UK and Ireland Sex Offender List and the merger of the CAB with the ENTIRE ARA instead of hiving off the NI part into an All island structure?
Obviously wider EU and global cooperation would be good but there is Specific evidence of the UK/Ireland context of organised crime and cross border sex offender movements
Namely would he support the creation of and UK and Ireland Sex Offender List and the merger of the CAB with the ENTIRE ARA instead of hiving off the NI part into an All island structure?
Obviously wider EU and global cooperation would be good but there is Specific evidence of the UK/Ireland context of organised crime and cross border sex offender movements
15 Feb 2006 @ 13:14
Comment from: Sarah Curran [Visitor] · http://www.belfastblogger.com
With regards to the sex offender's list this makes no sense to limit to a UK or even a UK/Ireland context. With free movement of people in the EU it only makes sense to have one on an EU-wide level. But trying to argue for things from a basis of pure logic is pointless in politics, not just in Northern Ireland but everywhere.
15 Feb 2006 @ 20:31
Comment from: drew [Visitor]
to the loyalists on here . would a united ireland be acceptable in a re-united kingdom ?
27 Feb 2006 @ 16:02
Yes with a but.
I'd be happy so long as it was a real attempt at the rest of Ireland re-joining the UK. My only worry would be a UK of GB and I where as soon as Ireland got back in, they moved to take the newly united Ireland out again and this time take us with them.
I'd be happy so long as it was a real attempt at the rest of Ireland re-joining the UK. My only worry would be a UK of GB and I where as soon as Ireland got back in, they moved to take the newly united Ireland out again and this time take us with them.
27 Feb 2006 @ 20:53
Comment from: drew [Visitor]
i think it is the only sensible way forward for these islands . we could be like trinidad and tobago ! great britain and ireland sounds good to me . of course there is no way that ye would accept "dublin rule" so ye would have to run some sort of administration up there . i could live without the "united kingdom" part though ...could you live without that part of the title ? also re : flags . i think every part of GB & I should have its part of the union flag to the fore if you understand me . maybe someone could use their design skills to illustrate what i mean , but at the moment all flags are under the english . just an idea
28 Feb 2006 @ 01:26
Comment from: Barry [Visitor]
Well, the Cross of St Patrick is still on the Union Flag so there wouldn't be a design change needed there. The only problem being how could you redesign the Union Flag with something to represent Wales? I guess it would be virtually impossible to do without totally ruining what is one of the world's most striking flags!
09 Jul 2006 @ 01:44
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