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Southern Double Standards: Part III
Thanks to Belfast Gonzo for pointing out the bigoted decision of the IRFU not to play the national anthem or fly the Union Flag when they face Italy in Belfast next year. Instead, Ireland will be represented by the IRFU flag and the 'neutral' song Ireland's Call, usually accompanied by the southern tricolour and Soldier's Song at games in Dublin. In my opinion this is a disgraceful way to treat the players and fans from Northern Ireland who have respected the flag and anthem of the Irish Republic at games in Dublin for so long now.
From some point after partition up until the 1950s, the Ireland rugby team would alternate matches between Dublin and Belfast, using the flag of whichever jurisdiction the match was to be held in. However this agreement was broken after Ireland's last full international match at Ravenhill in 1954. From that time, all Ireland matches were played in the Republic.
In 1995 the IRFU adopted the "neutral" anthem Ireland's Call at both home and away matches, and that could (and should) have been the end of it. If at that point they had ceased using the flag and anthem of the southern state, no issue would have arisen today.
However, the IRFU have continued to play the Republic's national anthem (and fly the Republic's flag) at home games at Lansdowne Road using the logic excuse that this was done on the basis that the Republic of Ireland was the home jurisdiction. On this logic, any future matches in Belfast would theoretically be played under the Union Flag/Northern Ireland flag with both Ireland's Call and God Save the Queen played. The IRFU managed to maintain that pretence for 11 years, in the belief that their explanation would never be challenged by the staging of an international match in Belfast.
However, last month the IRFU confirmed that the Italy match next year would take place at Ravenhill. A month later, they have confirmed that they will not show the same respect to Northern Ireland that they have always shown the Republic, and that they will only fly the IRFU flag and only play Ireland's Call. This gross hypocrisy means an Ireland match at Ravenhill will be played like an away match, and confirms once and for all that the team is not an Ireland rugby team but a Republic of Ireland rugby team.
Follow up:
Let me clarify. I would have no problem with not playing God Save The Queen nor with not flying the Union Flag/Northern Ireland flag in Belfast if the same procedure was followed in Dublin with respect to the Republic's flag and anthem. This may eventually be conceded, but I won't be surprised if in 10 years time Northern Irish rugby fans, having stood quietly through the Soldier's Song for 50 years in Dublin, are still being treated as second-class supporters by the IRFU - not to mention the players. Apparently Geese and Ganders are to be given very different sauces at the IRFU.
The Ireland rugby team is supposed to represent both parts of the island. To treat one part of the island as somehow better than the other in this way is a deliberate insult to Northern Ireland and the Ulster Branch should be ashamed of themselves for going along with it so easily. Despite having the double standard here pointed out to them, the IRFU will not reverse their decision and the Ulster Branch are backing them all the way.
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20 comments
Comment from: Paul [Visitor] · http://www.nimagyar.blogspot,com
Welcome back!
I take a bit of a different attitude here.
I've only ever had a passing interest in the fortunes of the Ireland Rugby team. No antipathy towards them ,it just has never felt like my team; their home ground is in the capital of another country, they play under another country's flag and have another country's anthem.
At the same time, I recognise that plenty of supporters and players of a Unionist tradition have been happy to support and play for the team. That's 100 % up to them of course, but by doing so, they IMO have accepted the flag, anthem and the location of the home ground of their team. Now, just because the IRFU deigns to play a match in Belfast, why should Unionist supporters suddenly decide that their flag and anthem is now the one which represents the team? It doesn't, it never has and never will; they compromised by following an all-"Ireland" team, they have to live with the consequnces of that choice.
I take a bit of a different attitude here.
I've only ever had a passing interest in the fortunes of the Ireland Rugby team. No antipathy towards them ,it just has never felt like my team; their home ground is in the capital of another country, they play under another country's flag and have another country's anthem.
At the same time, I recognise that plenty of supporters and players of a Unionist tradition have been happy to support and play for the team. That's 100 % up to them of course, but by doing so, they IMO have accepted the flag, anthem and the location of the home ground of their team. Now, just because the IRFU deigns to play a match in Belfast, why should Unionist supporters suddenly decide that their flag and anthem is now the one which represents the team? It doesn't, it never has and never will; they compromised by following an all-"Ireland" team, they have to live with the consequnces of that choice.
22 Aug 2006 @ 19:37
Paul, I sympathise with your view of the Ireland rugby team and feel kind of similar. It's not a disinterest in Rugby (I'd watch an Ulster match whenever it's on), but the Ireland team, as I've said above, is a Republic of Ireland team in (a thin) disguise.
The point is that the Republic's anthem was officially never played to represent the team, but to represent the state in which the match was being played (same goes for the flag, as the Union Flag used to be flown for matches at Ravenhill) - at least that's what the IRFU said, presumably under the impression that that explanation would never actually be challenged by a match being held in Belfast again.
The fact that they are now going back on what they said in order to keep up their double-standards is a disgrace, and they should abolish the Republic's flag and anthem in Dublin or, at the very least, stick to their own policy and use GSTQ and the Union Flag when in Belfast.
The point is that the Republic's anthem was officially never played to represent the team, but to represent the state in which the match was being played (same goes for the flag, as the Union Flag used to be flown for matches at Ravenhill) - at least that's what the IRFU said, presumably under the impression that that explanation would never actually be challenged by a match being held in Belfast again.
The fact that they are now going back on what they said in order to keep up their double-standards is a disgrace, and they should abolish the Republic's flag and anthem in Dublin or, at the very least, stick to their own policy and use GSTQ and the Union Flag when in Belfast.
22 Aug 2006 @ 19:50
Comment from: stevey2005 [Member] 
Very disappointing decision by the IRFU. I wodner of this same stance will apply when the Ireland rugby team plays in Dublin?? I THINK NOT 
22 Aug 2006 @ 20:32
Comment from: Bell12 [Visitor]
Post censored by beano.
Paul whoever the fuck you are, Dublin is not in a different country than Belfast, they're both in Ireland- the same country. the problem is they're both under different rule just for the moment though! Secondly Beano, why do you write about rugby and not gaelic football? Is it because rugby is a protestant game and gaelic football is a catholic game. I'm just curious, but it seems to me as if you hate or dislike catholics which would make you a bigot.
23 Aug 2006 @ 17:53
Bell, you make me so glad I went to all that effort yesterday to re-enable non-members to comment. Firstly, I occasionally get a chance to watch rugby. I have little interest in the sports of the GAA beyond its effect on other sports in Northern Ireland. That said, I don't make many posts about rugby at all, you can search the site using that little box with "search" written beside it if you don't believe me.
A quick search like this using the term "GAA" turned up, surprise surprise,
Tyrone Victorious in Northern Ireland GAA Double
That one post on GAA exactly equals the number of posts I've written about rugby. Now write out 100 times "I must think before I speak".
"but it seems to me as if you hate or dislike catholics which would make you a bigot. "
It would, but if you feel that strongly about it, please feel free to email me and tell me why it seems like that to you - that is if your belief is based anything more than the false idea I write more about rugby than GAA. And AFAIK the majority of Irish rugby supporters, particularly from the Republic, aren't protestants - perhaps you're betraying your own bigotry in making the statement that it's a "Protestant sport".
Now can we stick to the topic? If you have any concerns with my site, as distinct from the topic at hand, you know how to contact me.
A quick search like this using the term "GAA" turned up, surprise surprise,
Tyrone Victorious in Northern Ireland GAA Double
That one post on GAA exactly equals the number of posts I've written about rugby. Now write out 100 times "I must think before I speak".
"but it seems to me as if you hate or dislike catholics which would make you a bigot. "
It would, but if you feel that strongly about it, please feel free to email me and tell me why it seems like that to you - that is if your belief is based anything more than the false idea I write more about rugby than GAA. And AFAIK the majority of Irish rugby supporters, particularly from the Republic, aren't protestants - perhaps you're betraying your own bigotry in making the statement that it's a "Protestant sport".
Now can we stick to the topic? If you have any concerns with my site, as distinct from the topic at hand, you know how to contact me.
23 Aug 2006 @ 20:44
Comment from: Paul [Visitor] · http://www.nimagyar.blogspot,com
Bell12
"Paul whoever the fuck you are, "
All you need to know is that I am the someone who has just stopped laughing at your comment.
"Dublin is not in a different country than Belfast, they're both in Ireland- the same country. the problem is they're both under different rule just for the moment though"
Check international law and the constitutional status of the UK and Republic of Ireland, or on second thoughts (I've just read your comment again) get someone else to do it for you. I'll guarantee you'll find that Belfast and Dublin are not actually the "same country".
France is a country. Germany is a country.Ireland however is just an island floating in the N.Atlantic, apparently jam-packed with eejits, sorry that's it, end of story
And furthermore under the Good Friday Agreement, Dublin will remain in a different "country" to Belfast, until the majority of people in N.Ireland decide otherwise, it's called "democracy" ,my little deluded ding-a-ling
"Is it because rugby is a protestant game and gaelic football is a catholic game. "
That is one curious comment.
I was led to believe that the GAA was open to all.Are you now informing me that I, as a Protestant, am no longer permitted to play or watch it because of my religion? And check out which side of the border the vast majority of the Irish rugby team originate from (wee clue: they ain't from Ballymena, larne or Portiedown).
Or perhaps you are actually suggesting that we should organise all sport along strictly religious lines, now that would make you a, let me see...
Beano
Thank God school starts again back next week and we can get back to debating with the grown-ups with joint-up arguments.
"Paul whoever the fuck you are, "
All you need to know is that I am the someone who has just stopped laughing at your comment.
"Dublin is not in a different country than Belfast, they're both in Ireland- the same country. the problem is they're both under different rule just for the moment though"
Check international law and the constitutional status of the UK and Republic of Ireland, or on second thoughts (I've just read your comment again) get someone else to do it for you. I'll guarantee you'll find that Belfast and Dublin are not actually the "same country".
France is a country. Germany is a country.Ireland however is just an island floating in the N.Atlantic, apparently jam-packed with eejits, sorry that's it, end of story
And furthermore under the Good Friday Agreement, Dublin will remain in a different "country" to Belfast, until the majority of people in N.Ireland decide otherwise, it's called "democracy" ,my little deluded ding-a-ling
"Is it because rugby is a protestant game and gaelic football is a catholic game. "
That is one curious comment.
I was led to believe that the GAA was open to all.Are you now informing me that I, as a Protestant, am no longer permitted to play or watch it because of my religion? And check out which side of the border the vast majority of the Irish rugby team originate from (wee clue: they ain't from Ballymena, larne or Portiedown).
Or perhaps you are actually suggesting that we should organise all sport along strictly religious lines, now that would make you a, let me see...
Beano
Thank God school starts again back next week and we can get back to debating with the grown-ups with joint-up arguments.
23 Aug 2006 @ 21:44
Comment from: Bell12 [Visitor]
Paul: When did I say I was Catholic, I am a Protestant from the beautiful county of Louth and I do play Gaelic Football, It's a great sport along with soccer and rugby. It seems to me as if you and Beano are the bigots. Goodnight and God bless, I'll let you get back to your adult conversation.
23 Aug 2006 @ 22:53
Comment from: Paul [Visitor] · http://www.nimagyar.blogspot.com
"Paul: When did I say I was Catholic"
This is getting stupid.
Read my post again
When did I say that you said you were a Catholic?
Why do you think I could give one toss one way or the other what religion you are- why do you think it is vital reveal it to the world? Are you insecure about your beliefs?
"It seems to me as if you and Beano are the bigots"
Yes, to someone with your rather narrow view of the world, it probably does seem that we are. I'm happy to let everyone who has read this thread to make up their own mind on that one.
"Goodnight and God bless, I'll let you get back to your adult conversation."
Thank you.
This is getting stupid.
Read my post again
When did I say that you said you were a Catholic?
Why do you think I could give one toss one way or the other what religion you are- why do you think it is vital reveal it to the world? Are you insecure about your beliefs?
"It seems to me as if you and Beano are the bigots"
Yes, to someone with your rather narrow view of the world, it probably does seem that we are. I'm happy to let everyone who has read this thread to make up their own mind on that one.
"Goodnight and God bless, I'll let you get back to your adult conversation."
Thank you.
24 Aug 2006 @ 06:59
Comment from: andy [Visitor]
the unionists of Ireland were no so interested in democracy when they were prepared to take up arms to overthrow it. Democracy it seems became your friend when you had you neat little statlet in which to excercise it. However, i agree that the Irfu should be forced to deal with the consequences of avoiding the topic. Gstq should be played at ravenhill.
07 Sep 2006 @ 11:32
C'mon lads, people are entitled to their opinion. It's perfectly understandable that people can feel isolated.
Where I come from, people come in all shapes, sexes, colours, and faiths. Southerners are used to that, especially in the cities.
However, we're not used to dealing with contradictory national aspirations up close from fellow Irishmen, because our daily reality is that we have lots of protestants, but practically no unionists.
So, maybe we could all learn by shutting up and paying attention to what divides us. That goes for everybody.
Allow me to be the first. :-)
12 Sep 2006 @ 12:41
Comment from: Glengormley [Visitor]
Just a quick message to Bell. While you are calling people bigots for speaking about Rugby, why dont you get it all off your chest and blame them on the famine, the 30 years of conflict in the North and for the England Supporters rioting at Lansdowne Rd. Also, while Louth may have some nice scenery, Donegal and Sligo are much higher up in the beauty stakes.
Emmo, your daily reality of having "lots of Protestants" around you, means you must live in Co.Antrim as the last census in ROI revealed that only 2% of the population are Protestant. Most of these live in Monaghan and Donegall.
Back to the topic and I have to say I'm a frequent visitor to Lansdowne for the rugger and while I hate the Soldier Song with a passion, simply because its a song about war and we all know that in modern day history, Ireland has never won a war and in most cases waved the white flag when the Germans came calling. Also the line about the Saxons, is surely meant as a dig at the British people on this island, but I dont get upset about the flags flying and believe that if the President is there, of which she is for most matches, it is only proper protocol being followed. I am of the opinion that these protocols should be followed in Belfast. If Ian Paisley, who could well be the first Minister of N.I. by then, decides to attend, surely to give him his place, the Uniion flag should be flown and GSTQ be played before he is invited to meet the teams.
Emmo, your daily reality of having "lots of Protestants" around you, means you must live in Co.Antrim as the last census in ROI revealed that only 2% of the population are Protestant. Most of these live in Monaghan and Donegall.
Back to the topic and I have to say I'm a frequent visitor to Lansdowne for the rugger and while I hate the Soldier Song with a passion, simply because its a song about war and we all know that in modern day history, Ireland has never won a war and in most cases waved the white flag when the Germans came calling. Also the line about the Saxons, is surely meant as a dig at the British people on this island, but I dont get upset about the flags flying and believe that if the President is there, of which she is for most matches, it is only proper protocol being followed. I am of the opinion that these protocols should be followed in Belfast. If Ian Paisley, who could well be the first Minister of N.I. by then, decides to attend, surely to give him his place, the Uniion flag should be flown and GSTQ be played before he is invited to meet the teams.
12 Sep 2006 @ 22:33
Comment from: Margaret Robb [Visitor]
Why can't the all Ireland Rugby Team use the cross of St.Patrick less offensive I'd have thought.A few years ago I was passing Murrayfield when Ireland were playing Scotland and was surprised to see the flags being flown were, Saltire the Royal Standard as the Princess Royal was attending and instead of the Tricolour the Red diagonal Cross of St.Patrick.I was pleasantly surprised.
13 Sep 2006 @ 21:50
Margaret, a sound idea, and I'm surprised they use the St Patrick's cross at away matches - how many years ago was this? I was under the impression the IRFU used a quartered "4 provinces" flag.
I just want this recorded for posterity. The IRFU's Ulster Branch are reported as saying:
"When Ireland play in Dublin, the Irish national anthem plus Ireland's Call are played but, when the team play outside Ireland, wherever that might be, only Ireland's Call is played, so this is not out of the norm."
I just want this recorded for posterity. The IRFU's Ulster Branch are reported as saying:
"When Ireland play in Dublin, the Irish national anthem plus Ireland's Call are played but, when the team play outside Ireland, wherever that might be, only Ireland's Call is played, so this is not out of the norm."
13 Sep 2006 @ 22:24
Comment from: belfastman [Visitor]
on the issue fo god save the queen not being played at ravenhill, and the ulster rugby fans outrage. A quick reminder to those fans is that God save the queen is not supported by all Ulster provincial people and so should not have been played regardless of what happens down south at ireland matches. Everyone down south supports the soldiers song but in Ulster as a province not everyone supports God Save the Queen and that is why it was not played. Not every Ulster rugby fan is a unionist
08 Nov 2007 @ 14:56
It doesn't matter what their political persuasions are. We were told for 11 years the tricolour and soldiers song were used because they were the trappings of the state in which the match was played. This has clearly been shown to be a lie and the pathetic excuse that Belfast is "outside Ireland" shows this.
08 Nov 2007 @ 16:58
Comment from: dantheman [Visitor]
Have to agree with you here, it was a pathetic excuse
08 Nov 2007 @ 20:26
Comment from: belfastman [Visitor]
years but not everyone in N.Ireland recognises gos save the queen as their song, everyone in southern ireland recognises the soldier song as their song.
While some Ulster Fans might like God Save the Queen, others dont even consider it. As for south they should have never played the soldiers song in the first place but you have to recognise that in N.Ireland Half the population do not consider God Save the Queen to be their National Anthem and so why would Ulster Rugby Council go to play it at ravenhill, would it be just to get revenge on their southern friends. Instead of addressing the problem in a constructive manner you would make it worse and would lead to Ireland beng more divided than ever instead of trying to bring people together
While some Ulster Fans might like God Save the Queen, others dont even consider it. As for south they should have never played the soldiers song in the first place but you have to recognise that in N.Ireland Half the population do not consider God Save the Queen to be their National Anthem and so why would Ulster Rugby Council go to play it at ravenhill, would it be just to get revenge on their southern friends. Instead of addressing the problem in a constructive manner you would make it worse and would lead to Ireland beng more divided than ever instead of trying to bring people together
08 Nov 2007 @ 23:06
"While some Ulster Fans might like God Save the Queen, others dont even consider it. "
Liking it isn't the issue. It is the national anthem in Northern Ireland. In truth the IRFU just shouldn't play the Soldier's Song (or, therefore, GSTQ) at all. What is it the Sinners keep going on about? "Equality or Neutrality"?
"Instead of addressing the problem in a constructive manner "
I think I've been constructive. Two options. Union Jack/GSTQ at Ravenhill, Tricolour/Soldiers Song in Dublin OR neutral flags and anthems everywhere. Either will do, I'm not fussy.
Liking it isn't the issue. It is the national anthem in Northern Ireland. In truth the IRFU just shouldn't play the Soldier's Song (or, therefore, GSTQ) at all. What is it the Sinners keep going on about? "Equality or Neutrality"?
"Instead of addressing the problem in a constructive manner "
I think I've been constructive. Two options. Union Jack/GSTQ at Ravenhill, Tricolour/Soldiers Song in Dublin OR neutral flags and anthems everywhere. Either will do, I'm not fussy.
09 Nov 2007 @ 16:26
Comment from: Reg [Visitor]
"We were told for 11 years the tricolour and soldiers song were used because they were the trappings of the state in which the match was played. This has clearly been shown to be a lie and the pathetic excuse that Belfast is "outside Ireland" shows this."
Agreed Beano (no honestly!). The IRFU have been shown to be hypocrites. They should have ignored the questions as to why A na bhF was played at Lansdowne/Croker. Instead they came up with a lame PC excuse which has been shown up as a hypocritical lie.
Unionists have every right to be irritated. Also, as the IRFU are now suggesting that Belfast is not in Ireland - I am also irritated!
Agreed Beano (no honestly!). The IRFU have been shown to be hypocrites. They should have ignored the questions as to why A na bhF was played at Lansdowne/Croker. Instead they came up with a lame PC excuse which has been shown up as a hypocritical lie.
Unionists have every right to be irritated. Also, as the IRFU are now suggesting that Belfast is not in Ireland - I am also irritated!
09 Nov 2007 @ 17:28
Replying to Glengormley:
Well, thanks for the feedback Glengormley.The figure is actually 4.4% for christians that are neither catholic nor orthodox, although certainly we have catholics and protestants from other parts of the world who live here.
Anyway, I'm sure we could have very interesting discussions, about the ethnicities on this island, but the thing about these kinds of threads is that they become emotive and it all gets off topic.
The one thing I would say about my own ethnicity is that I'm Irish. Whatever my religion it isn't important in defining my country, nor my socio-economic status. It would be much more important if I lived up there, of course. I have enough trouble believing anything in the first place. Yes, of course I would know tons of non-catholic people. I wonder why this might be a curiosity for you! If you lived here for a while, you might like it. The rain is warmer in this part of the country at least.
Also, use of the soldier's song as the anthem is controversial amongst southerners, and it's often discussed ad nauseam on the radio. In fact, a lot of people think we need a much stronger anthem.I've heard a lot of people complaining about the lyrics - in light of the anglo-irish war ending back in 1922, people think that it doesn't reflect the vibrant new country that we have become. There are alternatives, such as Danny Boy, which originates from trad music but symbolises cross cultural unity.
As for "waving the white flag when the Germans turn up", I think that's a careless analysis. It was the Americans who prevented Churchill from invading the south. He and DeValera were mortal enemies since the anglo-irish war. And there's much more to the story, including helping the allies covertly, and the contribution of 50000 southern men who signed up to the English army to fight against Hitler, who have been forgotten by history, and etc, etc...
The thing about discussions that wander toward the political (or historic) is that it gets emotional, and you end up concentrating on what divides people rather than what unites them.
28 Dec 2007 @ 19:57
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